Peter vs. the Roman Catholic pope

Why would Christ need to announce the building of His Church on Himself? Then, turn around and give the keys to another - a human no less.

All Christ followers have the keys.

Christ followers not only have access to the kingdom, but they also will reign with Christ.

Roman Catholics know just about none of this.

Binding and loosing is the powers given only to the Apostles

Nope. You made that up.

Matt 18:18 is no more "only to the Apostles" than verses 19 and 20 are "only for the Apostles."

and their successors

You definitely made that up....as Christ nowhere mentioned giving any such thing to a select group of men called "successors."


, it would be strange indeed for the warden to give the keys and the power of clemency to the inmates.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Only in Roman Catholicism are Christ followers called "inmates."

Christ sets us FREE....and you believe you Catholics are prisoners. I believe you. I suppose you are!


He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you [John 20:21]. Jesus breaths on them, transferring His spirit and powers to them, saying, Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

You know the Apostles were not hearing the laundry lists of sins of long lines of Christians in the churches they planted, right? ROFL!
 
But do the Popes have apostolic authority?
Of course they do! They are the successors to Peter!

What was unique to the apostles, however, was they were the bearers of revelation, not simply the teachers of Faith. The pope and bishops are not bearers of revelation, they are the teachers of the Faith. They guard and hand on what the apostles gave to the Church.
 
They believed scripture.
Please produce a list or lists of all the teachings that a "scriptural" that the first Christians believed. When you are finished, explain why you think YOUR list is correct and why you think the list another believer would produce is not correct.
There is zero indication of infant baptism,
And yet there are Christian sects that practice this doctrine such as the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and I think Methodists.
eating god,
We do not believe we are "eating" God, if your definition of "eating" is the biological definition where by something is broken down and consumed.

We believe we are receiving God as food for our souls. God enters whole and entire, and departs whole and entire. God cannot be consumed, and thus, cannot be "eaten" in the biological sense.
popes.... What they talked about in the bible is what they believed.
Why then do so many sects believe things you think are not scriptural?
And your question wasn't 'did the ekklesia believe the lutheran tradition or methodist or baptist. I said the rcc wasn't around and you responded with 'well which one was; lutheran....?' There was no church in the first century other than the ekklesia.
WHAT did this Church believe and profess, sir?
The fracturing of the church happened later although not too much later. Those that didn't follow the true gospel during the apostolic era were either disciplined or shown the door.
Please produce or otherwise provide a list or lists of all the doctrines believed by the first Christians when the Church was united. When you are finished, please explain and defend why you think your list is accurate, but a list or lists provided by another believer or another sect is not correct.
 
Why would Christ need to announce the building of His Church on Himself?
Because He is our Rock.

Then, turn around and give the keys to another - a human no less.
Leaders (not only Peter) need the authority to apply biblical principles in congregational discipline situations.

Binding and loosing is the powers given only to the Apostles and their successors, it would be strange indeed for the warden to give the keys and the power of clemency to the inmates.
The Bible says nothing about the apostles having "successors".

He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you [John 20:21]. Jesus breaths on them, transferring His spirit and powers to them, saying, Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
John 20:22,23 (NASB)
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [d]have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

[d] I.e., have previously been forgiven

This is about declaring that someone sins have been forgiven, when he believes in Jesus Christ (having heard the gospel they preach); or, declaring that they have been retained, if he does not believe in Jesus Christ.


With the power of Christ, the Apostles are sent out to all nations, not just the Catholic nations, rather all nations with the authority to baptize, teach and sanctify. [Cf. Matthew 28: 18-20; John 17:17]

JoeT
LOL!

There was no such thing as a "Catholic nation" when the apostles were sent out! Incidentally, it was not only apostles who were sent out to preach the gospel, far from it, in fact.
 
And what is this "biblical" doctrine from your view?

Please produce a list or lists of all doctrines you think are "biblical" and thus, believed by the first Christians.
The whole OT (not including the spurious apocryphal books), plus the oral teaching by Jesus and the apostles, which we now have in written form, in the New Testament.
 
Please produce a list or lists of all the teachings that a "scriptural" that the first Christians believed. When you are finished, explain why you think YOUR list is correct and why you think the list another believer would produce is not correct.

And yet there are Christian sects that practice this doctrine such as the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and I think Methodists.

We do not believe we are "eating" God, if your definition of "eating" is the biological definition where by something is broken down and consumed.

We believe we are receiving God as food for our souls. God enters whole and entire, and departs whole and entire. God cannot be consumed, and thus, cannot be "eaten" in the biological sense.

Why then do so many sects believe things you think are not scriptural?

WHAT did this Church believe and profess, sir?

Please produce or otherwise provide a list or lists of all the doctrines believed by the first Christians when the Church was united. When you are finished, please explain and defend why you think your list is accurate, but a list or lists provided by another believer or another sect is not correct.
Please produce a list or lists of all the teachings that a "scriptural" that the first Christians believed.

Read the n.t. Its all in there.

And yet there are Christian sects that practice this doctrine such as the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and I think Methodists.

People believing different things is why we all have a bema seat judgement. Born again believers will find out what they got right and what they got wrong. I have no problem with that.

We believe we are receiving God as food for our souls.

Taught nowhere in scripture.

God enters whole and entire, and departs whole and entire.

Thanks for that admission. My God dwells in me 24/7/365.

Why then do so many sects believe things you think are not scriptural?

Why do you think? Its not difficult.

WHAT did this Church believe and profess, sir?

Asked and answered. The first century church didn't have to read anything into the bible like you do.

Please produce or otherwise provide a list or lists of all the doctrines believed by the first Christians when the Church was united.

You like to ask the same thing over and over don't you?
 
You put that off until the weekends?

Since "God" flees (whole and entire) faster than the wafer is even received....there is nothing left to pretend feed your soul.
If their god leaves them (which speaks volumes for their religion) why not devise a way to be able to pop an E throughout the week?
Pre-consecrated wafer just when you need'em! Like a pez. Sounds like a commercial.
 
If their god leaves them (which speaks volumes for their religion) why not devise a way to be able to pop an E throughout the week?
Pre-consecrated wafer just when you need'em! Like a pez. Sounds like a commercial.
Blasphemous to equate Jesus with candy.
 
People believing different things is why we all have a bema seat judgement. Born again believers will find out what they got right and what they got wrong. I have no problem with that.
Great! Then you have no argument with Catholics and Catholics have no argument with you. We will find out at the judgement what we got right and wrong.

You worship God according to the dictates of your conscience, we will do likewise.
 
The whole OT (not including the spurious apocryphal books),
You mean the Deuterocanonicals? If you mean to say that the Deuterocanonicals are not Scripture, where does Scripture teach 1) What counts as Scripture, and 2) That the Deuterocanonicals do not count as Scripture?

Appealing to Second Timothy 3:16 about "All Scripture is God Breathed and useful (sufficient if you prefer) for...." is of no help---since the whole reason Catholics receive the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture--is becasue they believe them to be God Breathed.

The debate then, isn't on the NATURE of Scripture, but on what COUNTS as Scripture. Second Timothy 3:16 tells us only what the NATURE of SCripture is. It does not tell us what COUNTS as Scripture--that is to say---it does not tell us what should or should not be in the Canon.
plus the oral teaching by Jesus and the apostles, which we now have in written form, in the New Testament.
Yes, we agree in the 27 book New Testament.

But I asked for a list or list of teachings of the Bible. Can you please provide a list or lists of teachings you believe are biblical--and why you think your list is correct, but another believer's list is incorrect.
 
Of course they do! They are the successors to Peter!

What was unique to the apostles, however, was they were the bearers of revelation, not simply the teachers of Faith. The pope and bishops are not bearers of revelation, they are the teachers of the Faith. They guard and hand on what the apostles gave to the Church.
No they don't and they are not the successors to Peter. Peter would be appalled by their behaviour, it would give him a heart attack and their false teachings would make him explode.
 
You mean the Deuterocanonicals? If you mean to say that the Deuterocanonicals are not Scripture, where does Scripture teach 1) What counts as Scripture, and 2) That the Deuterocanonicals do not count as Scripture?

Appealing to Second Timothy 3:16 about "All Scripture is God Breathed and useful (sufficient if you prefer) for...." is of no help---since the whole reason Catholics receive the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture--is becasue they believe them to be God Breathed.

The debate then, isn't on the NATURE of Scripture, but on what COUNTS as Scripture. Second Timothy 3:16 tells us only what the NATURE of SCripture is. It does not tell us what COUNTS as Scripture--that is to say---it does not tell us what should or should not be in the Canon.

Yes, we agree in the 27 book New Testament.

But I asked for a list or list of teachings of the Bible. Can you please provide a list or lists of teachings you believe are biblical--and why you think your list is correct, but another believer's list is incorrect.
The so-called "Deuterocanonical" books are not God-breathed. That is why they are not part of the OT canon (even the RC organisation calls them "Secondary Canon" books (that is what "Deuterocanonical" refers to)).

Here are some reasons why the apocryphal books are not canonical:

"Following Are The Reasons The Apocryphal Books Are Rejected By Bible Believers:


1.
They are not included in the original Hebrew O.T. preserved by the Jews. Ro. 3:1-2 states that God used the Jews to preserve His Word; therefore, we know that He guided them in the rejection of the Apocryphal books from the canon of Scripture.


2. They were not received as inspired Scripture by the churches during the first four centuries after Christ.


3. They were not written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired
historians and prophets of the O.T.


4. They do not claim to to be the inspired Word of God. Unlike the inspired Scriptures, the
Apocryphal books contain no statements such as “thus saith the Lord” or “these are the words of God.”


5. They contain teachings contrary to the biblical books. II Maccabees teaches praying to the dead and making offerings to atone for the sins of the dead. Consider this quote from II Maccabees 12:43-45: “He also took up a collection … and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. … For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen asleep would arise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead … Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” The Bible, though, says there is only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Ti. 2:5-6). Also He. 10:10-14 says believers have been perfected forever through Christ’s one sacrifice. Thus, the dead in Christ need no human, earthly prayers or offerings. At death the lost go immediately to a place of torment; thus there is no purpose in praying for them (Lk. 16:22-23).


II Maccabees also contains the heresy that deceased saints are interceding in heaven for those on earth (15:11-14). The Bible teaches that it is the Lord Jesus Christ, our great High Priest, who is interceding for us in Heaven–not deceased saints (He. 4:14-16; 8:1-2; 1 Jn. 2:1-2).


6. In quality and style, the Apocryphal books are not on the level of Bible writings. Even a hurried reading of the Apocryphal books reveals the fact that here we are touching the uninspired writings of men apart from divine inspiration. These writings are not “God breathed,” as 2 Ti. 3:16 says all Scripture is. There is not in the Apocryphal books the supernatural depth and bredth of thought, the rich complexity yet simplicity of language, which goes beyond mere writings of men.


7. The Apocryphal writings are not quoted by the Lord Jesus or the Apostles, while every part of the O.T. Scriptures are quoted. This is a very important point. Though some claim to find allusions to the Apocrypha in certain N.T. passages (Mt. 7:12; 27:43-54; Ro. 9:21; Ep. 6:13-17; He. 1:3; Jam. 1:6,19; 5:6), this is not a proven fact. While it is possible that the N.T. writers were familiar with the Apocrypha, it is plain that they did not directly quote from these books. The supposed allusions to the Apocrypha in the N.T. could just as easily be allusions to other O.T. histories or to facts given directly by revelation. We must remember that the N.T. Scriptures are not the product of man, but of God.


8. Some Apocryphal books, though written as history, are actually fiction. This is a form of deception not found in divinely inspired books of the Bible. “Ostensibly historical but actually quite imaginative are the books of Tobit, Judith, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon, which may be called moralistic novels” (Oxford Annotated Apocrypha, p. xi). Noteworthy examples of ancient fiction they might be, but such books have absolutely no place among the seven-times purified Word of God (Ps. 12:6-7).


9. The Apocryphal books were rejected from the canon of Scripture by the early church leaders.“It is a significant fact that the best of the early Fathers adopted the Hebrew canon as giving the authoritative Scriptures of the O.T.” (Analytical, p. 1083).


10. The book of Tobit contains many false things. First, there is the account of a supposed high and good angel of God who lies and teaches the use of magic! In Tobit 5:4 we are told that the angel’s name is “Raphael,” but later he lies to Tobit, claiming to be “Azarias the son of the great Ananias, one of your relatives” (Tobit 5:12). This angel professes to be “one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One” (Tobit 12:15). Yet he not only lies about his name, but teaches magic. “Then the angel said to him, `Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.’ …


Then the young man said to the angel, `Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?’ He replied, `As for the heart and the liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again. And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured'” (Tobit 6:4,6-8). The Bible clearly condemns magical practices such as this (consider De. 18:10-12; Le. 19:26,31; Je. 27:9; Mal. 3:5).


Second, the false doctrine of salvation through works is taught in the book of Tobit. “For
almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin” (Tobit 12:9). “So now, my children, consider what almsgiving accomplishes and how righteousness delivers” (Tobit 14:11). These false teachings must be contrasted with Le. 17:11, which says “it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul,” and with Tit. 3:5 which says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.”


Third, Tobit taught that help is only to be given to the deserving. “Place your bread on the grave of the righteous, but give none to sinners” (Tobit 4:17). Contrariwise, in Ex. 23:4-5 God taught even in O.T. times that His people were to do good to their enemies and not only toward the righteous.


11. The book of Judith contains the account of how a supposedly godly widow destroyed one of Nebuchadnezzar’s generals through deceit and sexual offers. It is also important to note that Judith’s counsel regarding resisting Nebuchadnezzar was contrary to that given by God’s prophet Jeremiah (Je. 38:1-4). God warned the Israelites to submit to Nebuchadnezzar rather than to resist, because the Babylonian captivity and destruction of Israel was a judgment from God upon the Jew’s rebellion and idolatry."

 
Because the Pope --and for that matter--the bishops----are the SUCCESSORS to the apostles, NOT apostles. The office of APOSTLE is unique in the Church.

Certain gifts were unique to the apostles and were not passed on to their successors.
Which is EXACTLY what "the church of the Nicolaitans" / Roman Catholicism wants their laity to think. "That was for THEM!!!! NOT FOR US!!!! "THEY were "SPECIAL" and God doesn't DO THAT any more.

Except that God STILL DOES empower his people miraculoulsly according to his will, and ALL CHRISTIANS are SAINTS - not just those promoted by Roman Catholicism.
 
Great! Then you have no argument with Catholics and Catholics have no argument with you. We will find out at the judgement what we got right and wrong.

You worship God according to the dictates of your conscience, we will do likewise.
To get to the bema seat you have to have the right gospel. Catholicism doesn't offer you that. So yes, we do have an argument.
 
You mean the Deuterocanonicals? If you mean to say that the Deuterocanonicals are not Scripture, where does Scripture teach 1) What counts as Scripture, and 2) That the Deuterocanonicals do not count as Scripture?

Appealing to Second Timothy 3:16 about "All Scripture is God Breathed and useful (sufficient if you prefer) for...." is of no help---since the whole reason Catholics receive the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture--is becasue they believe them to be God Breathed.

The debate then, isn't on the NATURE of Scripture, but on what COUNTS as Scripture. Second Timothy 3:16 tells us only what the NATURE of SCripture is. It does not tell us what COUNTS as Scripture--that is to say---it does not tell us what should or should not be in the Canon.

Yes, we agree in the 27 book New Testament.

But I asked for a list or list of teachings of the Bible. Can you please provide a list or lists of teachings you believe are biblical--and why you think your list is correct, but another believer's list is incorrect.
You mean the Deuterocanonicals?

No, the apocrypha. Its what it was called way back when. Athanasius called it that as well as Jerome and others.

If you mean to say that the Deuterocanonicals are not Scripture, where does Scripture teach 1) What counts as Scripture, and 2) That the Deuterocanonicals do not count as Scripture?

You compare what we know is authoritative and apostolic to those other books and they fail the test. Which is precisely what Irenaeus did.

The debate then, isn't on the NATURE of Scripture, but on what COUNTS as Scripture.

Theopneustos is the nature of scripture because its origen is divine, not human. The apocrypha has a human and therefore very fallible nature.
 
Of course they do! They are the successors to Peter!

What was unique to the apostles, however, was they were the bearers of revelation, not simply the teachers of Faith. The pope and bishops are not bearers of revelation, they are the teachers of the Faith. They guard and hand on what the apostles gave to the Church.
Popes do not have Apostolic Authority to perform miracles: raise the dead, pen Scripture, sit on one of the Twelve Heavenly Thrones and judge the Tribes of Israel.

Are you claiming Popes have Apostolic authority but do not have the authority of the Apostles?
 
Of course they do! They are the successors to Peter!

What was unique to the apostles, however, was they were the bearers of revelation, not simply the teachers of Faith. The pope and bishops are not bearers of revelation, they are the teachers of the Faith. They guard and hand on what the apostles gave to the Church.
None of your distinct doctrines and dogmas were taught by the apostles. How are your popes guarding what was never taught?
 
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