Philippians 2:12-13... What does it mean?

zerinus

Well-known member
Could you offer three or four examples using the Bible which you defer to this way I can understand what you're trying to get at
The two most foundational elements of Calvinism are:
  1. Predestination—the idea that God has predestined and predetermined all future events, including all future decisions and choices of free moral creatures (which is a denial of libertarian freewill).
  2. Justification by faith alone without works.
These are the two most fundamental tenets of Calvinism, without which it could not exist; and both of which are unbiblical and false.
 

civic

Well-known member
The two most foundational elements of Calvinism are:
  1. Predestination—the idea that God has predestined and predetermined all future events, including all future decisions and choices of free moral creatures (which is a denial of libertarian freewill).
  2. Justification by faith alone without works.
These are the two most fundamental tenets of Calvinism, without which it could not exist; and both of which are unbiblical and false.
hmmmmm lets see the bible uses these phrases several times ,

Predestined, appointed, chosen elect etc..........

and

Justified by faith apart from works, salvation by grace through faith,

so your strawman holds no water here and your cistern if full of leaks.

its not calvinism you oppose its God, the Truth from His word that you reject so quit blaming calvin for your unbelief. Its God you do not believe.

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
hmmmmm lets see the bible uses these phrases several times ,

Predestined, appointed, chosen elect etc..........

and

Justified by faith apart from works, salvation by grace through faith,

so your strawman holds no water here and your cistern if full of leaks.

its not calvinism you oppose its God, the Truth from His word that you reject so quit blaming calvin for your unbelief. Its God you do not believe.

hope this helps !!!
Those words used in the Bible do not mean what you think they mean.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The two most foundational elements of Calvinism are:
  1. Predestination—the idea that God has predestined and predetermined all future events, including all future decisions and choices of free moral creatures (which is a denial of libertarian freewill).

As civic has noted, "predestined" (Rom. 8:29,30, Eph. 1:5,11) and "predetermined" (Acts 4:28, 1 Cor. 2:7) both occur in the Bible.

However, the concept of "free moral creatures" is ABSENT the Bible.
And "libertarian freewill" is ABSENT the Bible.

So it appears that it is YOUR theology that is "unBiblical", not Calvinism. ;)

  1. Justification by faith alone without works.
These are the two most fundamental tenets of Calvinism, without which it could not exist; and both of which are unbiblical and false.

So you CLAIM they are "unBiblial and false".

Rom. 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal. 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal. 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our \guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.


Further, since Mormons love the ECF's so much, let's remind you of what THEY taught as well:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks  only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.  But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

God justifies  by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but the gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
 
Last edited:

Iconoclast

Active member
The two most foundational elements of Calvinism are:
  1. Predestination—the idea that God has predestined and predetermined all future events, including all future decisions and choices of free moral creatures (which is a denial of libertarian freewill).
  2. Justification by faith alone without works.
These are the two most fundamental tenets of Calvinism, without which it could not exist; and both of which are unbiblical and false.
predestination is in the bible, not one verse on man having a free will.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
predestination is in the bible, not one verse on man having a free will.
Every verse and every passage in the Bible which directly or indirectly exhorts mankind to do good and refrain from evil, with the promise of a reward or punishment, in this world or the next, is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone—and there are hundreds of them. Every one of them is a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. When Isaiah says:

Isaiah 1:

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.


That is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. When Jesus says, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3, 5), that is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. When Jesus mourns over Jerusalem and says:

Matthew 23:

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


That is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. The whole of the Sermon on the Mount is a verdict against predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. Every verse in the Bible that says that mankind will be judged according to their “works” (
Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:28–29; Rom. 2:6; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:10; Col. 3:25; 1 Peter 1:17; Rev. 20:12–13; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12), is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. The whole of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, from the beginning to the end, from Genesis to Revelation, is a verdict against predestination and faith-alone, and a nail (hundreds of nails in fact) in the coffin of Calvinism. Take a look at this thread in which I have listed many verses from both the OT as well as the NT showing how obedience is required for salvation.
 
Last edited:

armylngst

Well-known member
Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. - 2 Timothy 2:7


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed,
so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:12-13


1) What is meant by “work out your own salvation”?
It means that our assurance of our salvation comes through our work. Faith without works is dead. Salvation without the fruits of salvation is not salvation at all. "with fear and trembling" (you left that out), tells just how razor thin the line is between true conversion/salvation and false conversion. If you are "working out your own salvation", but you don't see God working in you, then you have problems. How do you know/see God working in you? If you will and work for God's good pleasure, then God is working in you.
2) What is meant by “for”?
I don't have my dictionary nearby, but generally in place of "because".
3) What is meant by “it is God who works in you”?
He who began a good work in you, will be faithful to complete it in the day of Christ Jesus. (simple enough)
4) What is meant by “both”?
Once again, my dictionary isn't nearby, but I believe that it is saying that there are two things God is working in us.
5) What is meant by “will and work”?
We are slaves of righteousness, so our mind and our actions reflect this, because it is God who is working it out within us.
6) What is meant by “for his good pleasure”?
Everything is for the glory of God alone. (You know, it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.)

[Yes I was being just a little snarky...]
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Those two verses appear to be self-contradictory. They appear to be making two opposing statements. In the first one, it is telling you to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. That makes it sound as though your salvation depends entirely on you. It depends entirely on your own efforts. In the next verse, it makes the opposite statement. It makes it sound as though your salvation depends entirely on God, and there is nothing you can do to change that. That is what makes the writings of Paul so “hard to be understood” (2 Peter 3:16). Now there are three possible ways of interpreting that scripture. One way would be to ignore the first verse, and stick only to the second one, and conclude that salvation is all God’s work, and there is nothing that anyone can do to contribute to his own salvation. That would be the Calvinistic interpretation. Another way would be to do the opposite, to ignore the second verse, and stick only to the first one, and say your salvation depends entirely on your own efforts. That would be the Pharisaic interpretation. A third option would be to do neither, but to try to harmonize the two verses so that they complement each other, rather than appear to be self-contradictory. Was it Paul’s intent to make a self-contradictory statement? Was he deliberately trying to contradict himself? I don't think so. If so, then the burden is on us to try and fathom what he is getting at, so that his statement does not appear self-contradictory. I believe the correct interpretation is to work as if everything depends on you, but at the same time put your faith and trust in the Lord as if everything depends on him. That I believe is what Paul is trying to say. It is not either/or. It is not either one or the other. It is both together combined. You work as if everything depends on you, but at the same time trust God as if everything depends on him.
I think you fail to understand the idea of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Consider an armor smith with dents in the armor they are working on. What do they do? They work out the dents. The armor is the salvation we have from God, and the dents are what we are working out. With fear and trembling... Perhaps we made our own armor and it isn't actually armor from God. Working that out, and it crumbles to dust. This has to do with true conversion and false conversion. If we do not will and work for His good pleasure, then our conversion was false. Hence the fear and trembling. Apparently your knowledge of Calvinism is lacking...
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Every verse and every passage in the Bible which directly or indirectly exhorts mankind to do good and refrain from evil, with the promise of a reward or punishment, in this world or the next, is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone—and there are hundreds of them. Every one of them is a nail in the coffin of Calvinism.
Maybe you did not read the op you are posting on but for your convenience...

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

And God removes all your nails!
 
Last edited:

brightfame52

Well-known member
Every verse and every passage in the Bible which directly or indirectly exhorts mankind to do good and refrain from evil, with the promise of a reward or punishment, in this world or the next, is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone—and there are hundreds of them. Every one of them is a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. When Isaiah says:

Isaiah 1:

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.


That is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. When Jesus says, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3, 5), that is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. When Jesus mourns over Jerusalem and says:

Matthew 23:

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


That is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. The whole of the Sermon on the Mount is a verdict against predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. Every verse in the Bible that says that mankind will be judged according to their “works” (
Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:28–29; Rom. 2:6; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:10; Col. 3:25; 1 Peter 1:17; Rev. 20:12–13; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12), is a verdict against both predestination and faith-alone, and a nail in the coffin of Calvinism. The whole of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, from the beginning to the end, from Genesis to Revelation, is a verdict against predestination and faith-alone, and a nail (hundreds of nails in fact) in the coffin of Calvinism. Take a look at this thread in which I have listed many verses from both the OT as well as the NT showing how obedience is required for salvation.
Not one of those verses say man has a freewill, its your imagination that says that.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I think you fail to understand the idea of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Consider an armor smith with dents in the armor they are working on. What do they do? They work out the dents. The armor is the salvation we have from God, and the dents are what we are working out. With fear and trembling... Perhaps we made our own armor and it isn't actually armor from God. Working that out, and it crumbles to dust. This has to do with true conversion and false conversion. If we do not will and work for His good pleasure, then our conversion was false. Hence the fear and trembling. Apparently your knowledge of Calvinism is lacking...
That is the craziest and weirdest interpretation of “work out” and “fear and trembling” that anyone could have imagined. The expression “work out” is elsewhere used in the Bible in this context:

Judges 19:

15 And they turned aside thither, to go in and to lodge in Gibeah: and when he went in, he sat him down in a street of the city: for there was no man that took them into his house to lodging.
16 And, behold, there came an old man from his work out of the field at even, which was also of mount Ephraim; and he sojourned in Gibeah: but the men of the place were Benjamites.
17 And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?


“Work out” in this context is used to mean doing manual labor in agricultural land. He wasn’t “straightening his armour” LOL! That expression is not used elsewhere in the Bible, but “work” by itself, with the same meaning, is used much in the Bible:

Romans 2:

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Colossians 1:

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;


As far as “fear and trembling” goes, that is also used elsewhere in the Bible, with a meaning nothing resembling what he has associated with it:

1 Corinthians 2:

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

2 Corinthians 7:

15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

Ephesians 6:

5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;


In none of these verses “fear and trembling” means anything remotely resembling the meaning that he is trying to associate with it.

1 Peter 1:

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


In this verse Peter combines “fear” with “work” in the same way that Paul does in this verse, which is the subject of the discussion:

Philippians 2:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination do the expressions “work out” and “fear and trembling” in this verse have the kind of meaning he is trying to associate with it.
 
Top