Pick your favorite argument for Christianity and let's discuss.

Gary Mac

Well-known member
You're making an excuse for not supporting your belief. C'mon, is it really that difficult? If it is, you should ask yourself why is it so difficult to share what you "know" with others who don't know. If you asked me (for example) about boiling water, it would be a very simple response. I would likely make a claim and you could test/verify for yourself. I would be sharing actual knowledge (as opposed to belief) and I wouldn't obfuscate, avoid answering or try to deflect. You could test for yourself without any limiting special conditions

You are making excuse for not supporting your belief. Prove there is no God.

God is Love and Love is not a belief, it is the state of ones being. You are just not capable of understading that is all.
What is it that I don't know about?
I do not believe there is no God -clearly you struggle with this concept. Its like having a million dollars. I do not have a million dollars -I do not believe that I do not have a million dollars. The difference shouldn't be too difficult to understand.
If you do not believe there is no God then why are you putting up such argument that there is no God? You are fickle.

But if there is a million dollars offered to you and you reject it, it isnt that you cant have a million it is that you only refuse it. That difference seems to be a difficulty for you.
My position -based on the nature of God, is that Gods exist in the minds of those who believe in them.
Yes that is your assumption, What you dont understand is God is the mind of those who has recieved to be like Him. God is not a belief, God is the manifestation of Love in you. A very simple manifestation of Him and one you reject is all.
If I am wrong, don't make any excuses, don't whine, don't make any special conditions that must be met in order for your "truth" to be known.
Thern why are you whining and making special conditions that must be met in order for your truth to be known?
Have a little intellectual integrity and make your case.
Intellct will not manifest God in you, intellect is limited by the inability to seak out that what your intellect is limited by.
If you can't, that's fine -I don't expect you to but will be pleasantly surprised and am more than willing to change my position.
If you was willing you would seek out His truths for yourself that comes only by God Himself. I dont expect you will and continue in your limited knowledge of Him from a mind that you deprave of .
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
metaphorically speaking, sure.
The bible is not a historical document, it is a religious document. It all is a metaphor what will happen in man if God manifests Himself in the life of a person. And the first thing to go is ones pious pose right out from them. It is where Gods Spirit that is Love Loved you, not because you are lovable but it is because it is His nature to so. In turn by having His same disposition as our own we show the very same Love for others where God says love others as I have loved you.

The God of heaven is so SO simple yet so SO rejected. Walking on water is easy to impulsive pluck but walking on dry land as to have Gods same disposition of Love in His same light is a different matter.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
You are making excuse for not supporting your belief. Prove there is no God.
There IS a God, in your imagination. Gods exist... in the imaginations of those who believe.
I think I've been very clear on my position.
God is Love and Love is not a belief, it is the state of ones being. You are just not capable of understading that is all.
Love is an idea, it's not a detectable thing existing outside of the mind.
If you do not believe there is no God then why are you putting up such argument that there is no God? You are fickle.
Huh? Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?
But if there is a million dollars offered to you and you reject it, it isnt that you cant have a million it is that you only refuse it. That difference seems to be a difficulty for you.
Do you think I'm rejecting some thing?
Yes that is your assumption,
I assume nothing.
What you dont understand is God is the mind of those who has recieved to be like Him. God is not a belief, God is the manifestation of Love in you.
The idea that God is the manifestation of Love is a belief.
A very simple manifestation of Him and one you reject is all.

Thern why are you whining and making special conditions that must be met in order for your truth to be known?

Intellct will not manifest God in you, intellect is limited by the inability to seak out that what your intellect is limited by.
If you was willing you would seek out His truths for yourself that comes only by God Himself.
I have done so. Demonstrate that I haven't.
I dont expect you will and continue in your limited knowledge of Him from a mind that you deprave of .
Yes, knowledge is limited. Belief is unlimited but also essentially useless outside of the imagination.
What is something independently verifiable that your God can do outside of your imagination?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
There IS a God, in your imagination. Gods exist... in the imaginations of those who believe.
I think I've been very clear on my position.
Yes you have been clear and I understand that Love is only imaginary for you, but we who are beholders of know the relaity and manifestation of it. Our God is Love, only becaue you have not been exposted to Love doesnt mean others havent it only means that you havent is all. He is not real for anyone who has not known Him.
Love is an idea, it's not a detectable thing existing outside of the mind.
You havent expereinced someone elses love for you to be detectable and identified with them have you.
Huh? Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?
Here is your quote "I do not believe there is no God"
Do you think I'm rejecting some thing?
Absouetly, the truth in Gods Spirit.
I assume nothing.
You are assuming there is no God who is Love.
The idea that God is the manifestation of Love is a belief.
Not if it is manifest in you. It is only a belief if you are void of Him.
I have done so. Demonstrate that I haven't.
You didnt seek Him out at all, you stopped short of the finished product because your mind was made up before you started. You didnt have the tenacity for a finished product.
Yes, knowledge is limited. Belief is unlimited but also essentially useless outside of the imagination.
Knowledge is only limited by a mind not willing to learn. Beliefs is not relaity at all, beliefs are opinions. And your belief, opinion, is there is no God from a mind not willing to learn.
What is something independently verifiable that your God can do outside of your imagination?
Make me as He is -- to have His same mind. One cant know Him at all without it. The very reason for your BELIEF, opinion, of there is no such thing.

Did not you say beliefs hold no substance?
 
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bigthinker

Well-known member
i worked as both a programmer for many years, then later going into academia as philosophy prof. for many years. evidence of the type you want is pointless.
Why is it pointless?
*I* say its pointless to the believer because it reveals the true nature of their God and they don't like it -or their anxious/afraid.
But things that exist meet certain criteria such as being distinguishable from non-existence and having some measurable/detectable effect etc.
I'm not aware of any reason or special rule that would exempt Gods from such standards.
So evidence isn't at all pointless.
 

civic

Well-known member
Humans create gods. The evidence is that gods do not exist outside of the imagination; they are ideas.
where did DNA come from ?

why is every human beings DNA different ?

where did the complex systems within the DNA molecule structure come from ?

A DNA molecule is like a computer which contains both hardware and software. Modern scientists can explain the hardware in the DNA molecule but they cannot explain the encoded information that makes that DNA molecule function the way is does. Scientists have no explanation for the DNA molecule or its design which points to a Designer just as a computer, its software and hardware points to a designer. Its the perfect living assembly line with more advanced complexity than all the super computers combined on this earth and that is just within one DNA molecule. The secular scientists are stumped since it goes against everything they have been taught to believe as scientists who deny the existence of God and Intelligent Design. But the real scientists who are not brainwashed by Darwinism know better and can see beyond all doubt that the DNA molecule was designed and created by God. There is no other explanation for its data and complexity which is impossible to have evolved over time. No one would ever think a super computer which is not as complex as a single DNA molecule evolved so why the double standard ?

hope this helps !!!
 
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bigthinker

Well-known member
where did DNA come from ?
DNA comes from RNA.
why is every human beings DNA different ?
The DNA differences between human beings is less than .1% (that's 99.9% identical).
where did the complex systems within the DNA molecule structure come from ?
Evolution.
A DNA molecule is like a computer
DNA is a chemical
which contains both hardware and software. Modern scientists can explain the hardware in the DNA molecule but they cannot explain the encoded information that makes that DNA molecule function the way is does. Scientists have no explanation for the DNA molecule
That isn't a problem. Theists have no explanation for the existence of God.
or its design which points to a Designer just as a computer,
DNA is not a computer and there is no evidence of design -if there were, considering all the errors, the designer must not have been very good.
In fact, DNA's poor "design" points to a natural process.
One key difference between DNA and something that is designed is the existence of the designer.
its software and hardware points to a designer.
No, it doesn't.
Its the perfect living assembly line
[/QUOTE]
Well, not "perfect".
with more advanced complexity than all the super computers combined on this earth and that is just within one DNA molecule. The secular scientists are stumped since it goes against everything they have been taught to believe as scientists who deny the existence of God and Intelligent Design.
That isn't how science works. Science routinely goes against what was previous thought because science progresses -knowledge leads to questions which lead to new knowledge which creates more questions etc. As knowledge increases, conclusions are refined.

But the real scientists who are not brainwashed by Darwinism know better and can see beyond all doubt that the DNA molecule was designed and created by God.
There are no such "real scientists". The only people who lack all doubt are believers, not scientists. Science is fueled by doubt and question.
There is no other explanation for its data and complexity which is impossible to have evolved over time.[
An explanation must actually explain and be useful/meaningful. Saying Batman did it or God or Zeus -or whatever is not a testable hypothesis.
We would have to have evidential knowledge of the designer in order conclude life is designed. If we found a computer, why wouldn't we conclude a supernatural intelligent designer?
No one would ever think a super computer which is not as complex as a single DNA molecule evolved so why the double standard ?

hope this helps !!!
It certainly helps me understand what your understanding of science is. So thank you.

What is the accepted explanation for the existence and origin of God? Its not really something modern believers can explain, is it?
Try apply the same reasoning to your position (think critically) and see where it leads.
Cheers!
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
The evidence is that gods do not exist outside of the imagination; they are ideas.

God transcends the universe or material existence so it is impossible to prove whether or not he exists apart from (outside) the universe since we cannot experience that.

But for me personally, the universe itself is evidence that there must be a God who transcends it.

I think there are only two options...
1) something (some matter) has always existed (which has become our universe).
2) someone (a being) has always existed (who created our universe).

In other words...
1) either matter has always existed
2) or a being that can create matter has always existed

Which do you believe?

I believe #2 and I define God as "the only one who transcends all creations".

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
It's pointless because the 'physics' of eden of of this current world is NOT the same...hence using the rules of this world on a different reality does not work. This would be like using a crockpot to try to achieve the collision of atoms.

the science of this earth and cosmos is not the same as eden's...so to try and argue them as if they were commensurate is illogical.
Do you have any reason to think this eden exists? Probably not since the physics are different, interesting special conditions.
Is there a particular reason other people should believe the same as you?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
okay....
So is it in Fiji?....

What makes you think it isn't entirely in your imagination/mind?
Do you imagine that you own a car or computer or do you actually have one?
That doesnt mean God doesnt exist, it only mean you imagine that He doesnt exist. You sure imagine a lot.
All that you are doing is speculating about God from ignorance and commenting about a subject you are totally ignorant in. And you didnt reply to my last reply to you #49. I had some questions there for you to answer if you can honestly.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Do you imagine that you own a car or computer or do you actually have one?
Actually, I can do both and that's the point.
That doesnt mean God doesnt exist,
Quite right. Besides, he does exist, in the mind.
This -at the very least- is true; Christians might call it the "heart" but that's a semantic difference as far as I'm concerned. The heart in this case is a metaphorical one and is indistinguishable from the imagination.
it only mean you imagine that He doesnt exist. You sure imagine a lot.
Sure, I can imagine that I don't have my car or computer -it doesn't mean they don't exist.
All that you are doing is speculating about God
Speculation is different. I'm stating my conclusion based on the lack of evidence to the contrary. My conclusion is tentative and based entirely on the evidence (or lack thereof) and I'll be compelled to change my position should repeatable, reliable, independently testable evidence be presented. To be clear, that basically means that I would be able to detect the existence of God myself and be able to distinguish its presence from its absence (which admittedly might be difficult if God turned out to actually be omnipresent).
from ignorance and commenting about a subject you are totally ignorant in.
I'll ignore that since it is a statement of complete ignorance and in no way addresses the point. You don't get to dismiss it just by calling it "ignorant". On the other hand you could make your case -which you clearly did not do.... Wonder why that is?
And you didnt reply to my last reply to you #49. I had some questions there for you to answer if you can honestly.
Forgive me, I may have missed that post as I just now noticed this one. I'll take a look.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Yes you have been clear and I understand that Love is only imaginary for you,
I'm not sure what you think you mean by imaginary. Love doesn't exist outside of a conscious mind -as far as we can tell, and that is our limitation here. It doesn't have mass, isn't measurable, isn't objective, it isn't energy or a force, and it can't be dropped or picked up if dropped. The point is that the nature of love, its substance, is conceptual. But that doesn't belittle it.
but we who are beholders of know the relaity and manifestation of it. Our God is Love,
Would you say also that Love is your God?

only becaue you have not been exposted to Love doesnt mean others havent it only means that you havent is all. He is not real for anyone who has not known Him.
Right, like the Invisible Boy in the movie Mystery Men; he can only turn invisible if no one is looking. God isn't real for anyone who doesn't already believe. That's entirely consistent with my position. Your God isn't real for me because I don't believe in it. The existential difference between your God and my car is that while I also don't believe in my car, it nevertheless exists and other people can detect it without beliefs.
You havent expereinced someone elses love for you to be detectable and identified with them have you.
I am unclear about your meaning.
Here is your quote "I do not believe there is no God"
Sorry, I misread your question. Here is the question you asked:
"If you do not believe there is no God then why are you putting up such argument that there is no God? You are fickle."
I am not arguing that there is no God, I am arguing that God exists in the imagination.
And I'm not fickle.
Absouetly, the truth in Gods Spirit.

You are assuming there is no God who is Love.
I assume nothing -or at least nothing of consequence. I might assume my dog is sleeping while I'm at work -what else is he going to do, right?
But I assume nothing about God.
Not if it is manifest in you. It is only a belief if you are void of Him.
But you have to believe in order to believe it is manifest in you.
You didnt seek Him out at all, you stopped short of the finished product because your mind was made up before you started. You didnt have the tenacity for a finished product.
Sure, blame the victim. Typical response. Your God can't be bothered right? I've seen this response before, its a popular one but think about what it means, it means that all the work must be done by the human and the only ones who are going to do the work are those who already believe Once again we're back to the Invisible Boy analogy.
Knowledge is only limited by a mind not willing to learn. Beliefs is not relaity at all, beliefs are opinions. And your belief, opinion, is there is no God from a mind not willing to learn.
Patently wrong. I shouldn't need to repeat myself, it is neither my belief nor my opinion that there is no God. God exists in the imagination.
Can you explain why this is difficult to comprehend? It might save us time in the future.
Make me as He is -- to have His same mind.
Interesting. At this point in time, what are the major disagreements between you and God?
By the way, that's not an independently verifiable claim. I can demonstrate the existence of my automobile even to those completely ignorant and lacking belief that I even have a car. Surely you understand the difference.
One cant know Him at all without it.
okay...
The very reason for your BELIEF, opinion, of there is no such thing.

Did not you say beliefs hold no substance?
That don't have any such belief.
And yes, I'm sure you'll agree with me, beliefs are without substance. People can believe whatever they want without standards or limits. A coworker recently told me that "they" are wanting to lower the age of consent to 4. This is of course absurd and without evidence but my coworker genuinely believes it. My five year old believes in Santa Claus, I know an adult who believes Bigfoot is real. People believe all soerts of things and none of their beliefs change or affect reality.
And the same is true for your beliefs. I'm sure they are meaningful to you but is there a reason they should be meaningful to me?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Actually, I can do both and that's the point.
I suppose you can imagine that you have a car and not own one.
Quite right. Besides, he does exist, in the mind.
This -at the very least- is true; Christians might call it the "heart" but that's a semantic difference as far as I'm concerned. The heart in this case is a metaphorical one and is indistinguishable from the imagination.
You dont get it at all. It isnt about existing in the mind, it is the state of the mind.
Sure, I can imagine that I don't have my car or computer -it doesn't mean they don't exist.
It is a matter of ownership. They exist but if you dont own one all you can do is imagine.
Speculation is different. I'm stating my conclusion based on the lack of evidence to the contrary. My conclusion is tentative and based entirely on the evidence (or lack thereof) and I'll be compelled to change my position should repeatable, reliable, independently testable evidence be presented. To be clear, that basically means that I would be able to detect the existence of God myself and be able to distinguish its presence from its absence (which admittedly might be difficult if God turned out to actually be omnipresent).
Evidence? How can you make such an assesment without evidence from your own there is no God? Prove to me there is no God. You cant all you can do is comment from limited knowledge limited by inability, or unwillingness, to seek out a truth.

What if God really can come to you and manifest Himself in you? Isnt the truth is you have no intenet for seeking the truth out? You are assuming yourself to be correct in your assesment. You cant know the truth of a place that you never have been in. WHich is in actuallty a shallow state of mind not willing to seek out someting foriegn to your understanding. A God of Love is invisable to your understanding.
I'll ignore that since it is a statement of complete ignorance and in no way addresses the point. You don't get to dismiss it just by calling it "ignorant". On the other hand you could make your case -which you clearly did not do.... Wonder why that is?
You say that God only resides in the mind of a believer. What if the results of God is manifest in the mind in which He does exactly that? If so it is no longer a belief is it?
If God is not manifest in you then one can only comment about Him in ignorance would you agree? You know that you can own a car, a Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, BMW, you name it, But if you never owned one, all you can do is speculate about them.

I made my case clear -- you just didnt understand it from a mind limited. You cant comprehend least it is material and in your hand.

Mars is out there but until you step foot on it imagination has control.
God is out there but until you step foot into Him imagination has control.
BTW Is speculation. Unsupported beliefs.
Forgive me, I may have missed that post as I just now noticed this one. I'll take a look.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Who CARES about his arguments?? The BEST ONE is Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified for SIN.
Sa
I suppose you can imagine that you have a car and not own one.

You dont get it at all. It isnt about existing in the mind, it is the state of the mind.

It is a matter of ownership. They exist but if you dont own one all you can do is imagine.
no, its about being able to imagine. Ownership is irrelevant.
Evidence? How can you make such an assesment without evidence from your own there is no God?
Evidence is expected concerning things that exist.
Prove to me there is no God. You cant
Right. Just as you cannot prove Santa doesn't exist.
all you can do is comment from limited knowledge
Yep.
limited by inability, or unwillingness, to seek out a truth.
Think about this one for a moment Gary, what I am doing is seeking truth.
What if God really can come to you and manifest Himself in you?
Yeah, what if?
Isnt the truth is you have no intenet for seeking the truth out?
um...?
You are assuming yourself to be correct in your assesment.
I'm pretty sure I've already told you that I assume nothing.
You cant know the truth of a place that you never have been in.
What does "truth of a place" mean?
A God of Love is invisable to your understanding.
Perhaps I haven't explained my position: I DO NOT believe in God.
In your opinion, have you done a good job in showing me the love of your God? Because in my opinion you haven't.
You say that God only resides in the mind of a believer.
I don't think that is what I've said; perhaps you're not reading all of my words. I'm pretty sure I've said that God exists in the mind or imagination. I'm reasonably certain I've never said that God ONLY exists in the mind of a believer.
What if the results of God is manifest in the mind in which He does exactly that?
what if?
If so it is no longer a belief is it?
How is a manifestation in the mind different than imaginary?
If God is not manifest in you then one can only comment about Him in ignorance would you agree?
Of course not. My car is not manifest in me and yet I can comment on it.
You know that you can own a car, a Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, BMW, you name it, But if you never owned one, all you can do is speculate about them.
No, because they "manifest" outside of the imagination, we can do more than that.
I made my case clear -- you just didnt understand it from a mind limited. You cant comprehend least it is material and in your hand.

Mars is out there but until you step foot on it imagination has control.
God is out there but until you step foot into Him imagination has control.
BTW Is speculation. Unsupported beliefs.
God is not "out there" the same way Mars is "out there". Mars exists, can be detected, its absence is distinct from its presence.
God is actually "in there".
Gary, you've asserted a lot of things without supporting them -basically just spewing "stuff". If God is "out there" demonstrate that he is. You could also have God send me a personal message.
 
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