Pick your favorite argument for Christianity and let's discuss.

Gary Mac

Well-known member
okay....
So is it in Fiji?....

What makes you think it isn't entirely in your imagination/mind?
Do you imagine that you own a car or computer or do you actually have one?
That doesnt mean God doesnt exist, it only mean you imagine that He doesnt exist. You sure imagine a lot.
All that you are doing is speculating about God from ignorance and commenting about a subject you are totally ignorant in. And you didnt reply to my last reply to you #49. I had some questions there for you to answer if you can honestly.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Do you imagine that you own a car or computer or do you actually have one?
Actually, I can do both and that's the point.
That doesnt mean God doesnt exist,
Quite right. Besides, he does exist, in the mind.
This -at the very least- is true; Christians might call it the "heart" but that's a semantic difference as far as I'm concerned. The heart in this case is a metaphorical one and is indistinguishable from the imagination.
it only mean you imagine that He doesnt exist. You sure imagine a lot.
Sure, I can imagine that I don't have my car or computer -it doesn't mean they don't exist.
All that you are doing is speculating about God
Speculation is different. I'm stating my conclusion based on the lack of evidence to the contrary. My conclusion is tentative and based entirely on the evidence (or lack thereof) and I'll be compelled to change my position should repeatable, reliable, independently testable evidence be presented. To be clear, that basically means that I would be able to detect the existence of God myself and be able to distinguish its presence from its absence (which admittedly might be difficult if God turned out to actually be omnipresent).
from ignorance and commenting about a subject you are totally ignorant in.
I'll ignore that since it is a statement of complete ignorance and in no way addresses the point. You don't get to dismiss it just by calling it "ignorant". On the other hand you could make your case -which you clearly did not do.... Wonder why that is?
And you didnt reply to my last reply to you #49. I had some questions there for you to answer if you can honestly.
Forgive me, I may have missed that post as I just now noticed this one. I'll take a look.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Yes you have been clear and I understand that Love is only imaginary for you,
I'm not sure what you think you mean by imaginary. Love doesn't exist outside of a conscious mind -as far as we can tell, and that is our limitation here. It doesn't have mass, isn't measurable, isn't objective, it isn't energy or a force, and it can't be dropped or picked up if dropped. The point is that the nature of love, its substance, is conceptual. But that doesn't belittle it.
but we who are beholders of know the relaity and manifestation of it. Our God is Love,
Would you say also that Love is your God?

only becaue you have not been exposted to Love doesnt mean others havent it only means that you havent is all. He is not real for anyone who has not known Him.
Right, like the Invisible Boy in the movie Mystery Men; he can only turn invisible if no one is looking. God isn't real for anyone who doesn't already believe. That's entirely consistent with my position. Your God isn't real for me because I don't believe in it. The existential difference between your God and my car is that while I also don't believe in my car, it nevertheless exists and other people can detect it without beliefs.
You havent expereinced someone elses love for you to be detectable and identified with them have you.
I am unclear about your meaning.
Here is your quote "I do not believe there is no God"
Sorry, I misread your question. Here is the question you asked:
"If you do not believe there is no God then why are you putting up such argument that there is no God? You are fickle."
I am not arguing that there is no God, I am arguing that God exists in the imagination.
And I'm not fickle.
Absouetly, the truth in Gods Spirit.

You are assuming there is no God who is Love.
I assume nothing -or at least nothing of consequence. I might assume my dog is sleeping while I'm at work -what else is he going to do, right?
But I assume nothing about God.
Not if it is manifest in you. It is only a belief if you are void of Him.
But you have to believe in order to believe it is manifest in you.
You didnt seek Him out at all, you stopped short of the finished product because your mind was made up before you started. You didnt have the tenacity for a finished product.
Sure, blame the victim. Typical response. Your God can't be bothered right? I've seen this response before, its a popular one but think about what it means, it means that all the work must be done by the human and the only ones who are going to do the work are those who already believe Once again we're back to the Invisible Boy analogy.
Knowledge is only limited by a mind not willing to learn. Beliefs is not relaity at all, beliefs are opinions. And your belief, opinion, is there is no God from a mind not willing to learn.
Patently wrong. I shouldn't need to repeat myself, it is neither my belief nor my opinion that there is no God. God exists in the imagination.
Can you explain why this is difficult to comprehend? It might save us time in the future.
Make me as He is -- to have His same mind.
Interesting. At this point in time, what are the major disagreements between you and God?
By the way, that's not an independently verifiable claim. I can demonstrate the existence of my automobile even to those completely ignorant and lacking belief that I even have a car. Surely you understand the difference.
One cant know Him at all without it.
okay...
The very reason for your BELIEF, opinion, of there is no such thing.

Did not you say beliefs hold no substance?
That don't have any such belief.
And yes, I'm sure you'll agree with me, beliefs are without substance. People can believe whatever they want without standards or limits. A coworker recently told me that "they" are wanting to lower the age of consent to 4. This is of course absurd and without evidence but my coworker genuinely believes it. My five year old believes in Santa Claus, I know an adult who believes Bigfoot is real. People believe all soerts of things and none of their beliefs change or affect reality.
And the same is true for your beliefs. I'm sure they are meaningful to you but is there a reason they should be meaningful to me?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Actually, I can do both and that's the point.
I suppose you can imagine that you have a car and not own one.
Quite right. Besides, he does exist, in the mind.
This -at the very least- is true; Christians might call it the "heart" but that's a semantic difference as far as I'm concerned. The heart in this case is a metaphorical one and is indistinguishable from the imagination.
You dont get it at all. It isnt about existing in the mind, it is the state of the mind.
Sure, I can imagine that I don't have my car or computer -it doesn't mean they don't exist.
It is a matter of ownership. They exist but if you dont own one all you can do is imagine.
Speculation is different. I'm stating my conclusion based on the lack of evidence to the contrary. My conclusion is tentative and based entirely on the evidence (or lack thereof) and I'll be compelled to change my position should repeatable, reliable, independently testable evidence be presented. To be clear, that basically means that I would be able to detect the existence of God myself and be able to distinguish its presence from its absence (which admittedly might be difficult if God turned out to actually be omnipresent).
Evidence? How can you make such an assesment without evidence from your own there is no God? Prove to me there is no God. You cant all you can do is comment from limited knowledge limited by inability, or unwillingness, to seek out a truth.

What if God really can come to you and manifest Himself in you? Isnt the truth is you have no intenet for seeking the truth out? You are assuming yourself to be correct in your assesment. You cant know the truth of a place that you never have been in. WHich is in actuallty a shallow state of mind not willing to seek out someting foriegn to your understanding. A God of Love is invisable to your understanding.
I'll ignore that since it is a statement of complete ignorance and in no way addresses the point. You don't get to dismiss it just by calling it "ignorant". On the other hand you could make your case -which you clearly did not do.... Wonder why that is?
You say that God only resides in the mind of a believer. What if the results of God is manifest in the mind in which He does exactly that? If so it is no longer a belief is it?
If God is not manifest in you then one can only comment about Him in ignorance would you agree? You know that you can own a car, a Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, BMW, you name it, But if you never owned one, all you can do is speculate about them.

I made my case clear -- you just didnt understand it from a mind limited. You cant comprehend least it is material and in your hand.

Mars is out there but until you step foot on it imagination has control.
God is out there but until you step foot into Him imagination has control.
BTW Is speculation. Unsupported beliefs.
Forgive me, I may have missed that post as I just now noticed this one. I'll take a look.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Who CARES about his arguments?? The BEST ONE is Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified for SIN.
Sa
I suppose you can imagine that you have a car and not own one.

You dont get it at all. It isnt about existing in the mind, it is the state of the mind.

It is a matter of ownership. They exist but if you dont own one all you can do is imagine.
no, its about being able to imagine. Ownership is irrelevant.
Evidence? How can you make such an assesment without evidence from your own there is no God?
Evidence is expected concerning things that exist.
Prove to me there is no God. You cant
Right. Just as you cannot prove Santa doesn't exist.
all you can do is comment from limited knowledge
Yep.
limited by inability, or unwillingness, to seek out a truth.
Think about this one for a moment Gary, what I am doing is seeking truth.
What if God really can come to you and manifest Himself in you?
Yeah, what if?
Isnt the truth is you have no intenet for seeking the truth out?
um...?
You are assuming yourself to be correct in your assesment.
I'm pretty sure I've already told you that I assume nothing.
You cant know the truth of a place that you never have been in.
What does "truth of a place" mean?
A God of Love is invisable to your understanding.
Perhaps I haven't explained my position: I DO NOT believe in God.
In your opinion, have you done a good job in showing me the love of your God? Because in my opinion you haven't.
You say that God only resides in the mind of a believer.
I don't think that is what I've said; perhaps you're not reading all of my words. I'm pretty sure I've said that God exists in the mind or imagination. I'm reasonably certain I've never said that God ONLY exists in the mind of a believer.
What if the results of God is manifest in the mind in which He does exactly that?
what if?
If so it is no longer a belief is it?
How is a manifestation in the mind different than imaginary?
If God is not manifest in you then one can only comment about Him in ignorance would you agree?
Of course not. My car is not manifest in me and yet I can comment on it.
You know that you can own a car, a Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, BMW, you name it, But if you never owned one, all you can do is speculate about them.
No, because they "manifest" outside of the imagination, we can do more than that.
I made my case clear -- you just didnt understand it from a mind limited. You cant comprehend least it is material and in your hand.

Mars is out there but until you step foot on it imagination has control.
God is out there but until you step foot into Him imagination has control.
BTW Is speculation. Unsupported beliefs.
God is not "out there" the same way Mars is "out there". Mars exists, can be detected, its absence is distinct from its presence.
God is actually "in there".
Gary, you've asserted a lot of things without supporting them -basically just spewing "stuff". If God is "out there" demonstrate that he is. You could also have God send me a personal message.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I'm not sure what you think you mean by imaginary. Love doesn't exist outside of a conscious mind -as far as we can tell, and that is our limitation here. It doesn't have mass, isn't measurable, isn't objective, it isn't energy or a force, and it can't be dropped or picked up if dropped. The point is that the nature of love, its substance, is conceptual. But that doesn't belittle it.
Now you are getting the jest of God.
Would you say also that Love is your God?
Love is the disposition of, the mindset of my God. A Spirit of -- He is that Spirit. It isnt something we are born with, it isnt someting we learn. It isnt natural it is supernatural and will cause man to do extrodinary things that isnt ordinary. It is someting we recieve.
Right, like the Invisible Boy in the movie Mystery Men; he can only turn invisible if no one is looking. God isn't real for anyone who doesn't already believe. That's entirely consistent with my position. Your God isn't real for me because I don't believe in it. The existential difference between your God and my car is that while I also don't believe in my car, it nevertheless exists and other people can detect it without beliefs.
What if He can manifest Himself in you but you only reject the notion that He can? You can reject a gift, that doesnt men it isnt a gift, it only means you reject it.
I am unclear about your meaning.
Point being exactly.
Sorry, I misread your question. Here is the question you asked:
"If you do not believe there is no God then why are you putting up such argument that there is no God? You are fickle."
I am not arguing that there is no God, I am arguing that God exists in the imagination.
And I'm not fickle.
I see. If Love is only an imagination for you then I can see why you bleieve as you do. Beliefs has not substance at all does it?
I assume nothing -or at least nothing of consequence. I might assume my dog is sleeping while I'm at work -what else is he going to do, right?
You may assume your dog is sleeping but in reality he is tearing up your couch. Which would hols substance, reality. Assuming he is slaaping or going home and replacing the couch?
But I assume nothing about God.
You assumed your dog was sleeping just as you assume God is an imagination.
But you have to believe in order to believe it is manifest in you.
Actually He was manifest in me then I believed. You have it backward. WHat is the use in believing a fable?
Sure, blame the victim. Typical response. Your God can't be bothered right? I've seen this response before, its a popular one but think about what it means, it means that all the work must be done by the human and the only ones who are going to do the work are those who already believe Once again we're back to the Invisible Boy analogy.
Invisable boy analogy? Spirit is invisable, Love is invisable, all that you can see physically of it is where it has been and the results of from the beholder of. You cant see what is man no more than I can, but I can decifer by identity with what man says and does of himself whethe it is good or bad. It is by identification not speculation from beliefs. Beliefs hold no merit at all.
Blaiming the victim? Seems to me the vistim is the blame.
Patently wrong. I shouldn't need to repeat myself, it is neither my belief nor my opinion that there is no God. God exists in the imagination.
Can you explain why this is difficult to comprehend? It might save us time in the future.
Is it not that you believe that God exists in the imagination? Again beliefs has not substance for truths at all. Love is not an imagination at all, it is the substance of the actions of the beholder of.
Interesting. At this point in time, what are the major disagreements between you and God?
There is none, We are one.
By the way, that's not an independently verifiable claim. I can demonstrate the existence of my automobile even to those completely ignorant and lacking belief that I even have a car. Surely you understand the difference.
I can speculate about it.
I can demnonstrate the existance of a God who is love, even to those completely ignorant and lacking belief that I even can.
Surely you can understand this difference?
okay...

That don't have any such belief.
And yes, I'm sure you'll agree with me, beliefs are without substance. People can believe whatever they want without standards or limits. A coworker recently told me that "they" are wanting to lower the age of consent to 4. This is of course absurd and without evidence but my coworker genuinely believes it. My five year old believes in Santa Claus, I know an adult who believes Bigfoot is real. People believe all soerts of things and none of their beliefs change or affect reality.
And the same is true for your beliefs. I'm sure they are meaningful to you but is there a reason they should be meaningful to me?
No if Love is not for you and meaningless for you then I understand. Only because you do not believe that Love is a Spirit and isnt for you, does not mean it doesnt exist for others, it only means that you do not believe it exists. For me I worship Love, I strive for it, I pray to it, I incorperate it in my being, It isnt about what I believe about it, it is who I Am. And it is very clear that you cannot comprehend that and do not believe that, beliefs hold no substance at all.

There is noting at all that I can say or do about it, all I can do is give testimoney for what Love has done in my life. For I once didnt believe in God either but by the manifestaion of -- He is a real eye opener. You just dont believe that is all.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
God transcends the universe or material existence so it is impossible to prove whether or not he exists apart from (outside) the universe since we cannot experience that.

But for me personally, the universe itself is evidence that there must be a God who transcends it.

I think there are only two options...
1) something (some matter) has always existed (which has become our universe).
2) someone (a being) has always existed (who created our universe).

In other words...
1) either matter has always existed
2) or a being that can create matter has always existed

Which do you believe?

I believe #2 and I define God as "the only one who transcends all creations".

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

@bigthinker I thought you wanted to discuss but you didn't answer my question. :)

Which do you believe?
1) matter has always existed
2) a being that can create matter has always existed
3) other, please explain

I believe #2 and I define God as "the only one who transcends all creations".
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member

bigthinker

Well-known member
@bigthinker I thought you wanted to discuss but you didn't answer my question. :)

Which do you believe?
1) matter has always existed
2) a being that can create matter has always existed
3) other, please explain

I believe #2 and I define God as "the only one who transcends all creations".
I don't believe any of the options; referring to #3, I don't have an "other" belief.
 
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