Please explain what the Apostle Paul stated at Philippians 2:7-8

OldShepherd

Active member
What did he empty himself of? Traditional trinitarian doctrine is that he added a human nature to himself, making him greater, not lesser.
Computer went haywire and cut off part of previous post.
Don't know, don't care. Not important to this discussion.
but He made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
 

OldShepherd

Active member
No, your cherry picked translation says it. And your cherry picked translation is in contradiction to other passages.
Wrong! I don't rely on "translations" I read both Biblical languages and a few more. Plus I have BDB Hebrew lexicon and BDAG Greek lexicon and the appropriate grammars. And for the OT I can refer to the 1917 Jewish Publicaion Society OT and the EOB NT.

So you are claiming that "God" is a kind of creature, and Jesus is a creature after the kind "God" ? Wow.
See if you can follow this logic. The offspring of a cow is a cow. The offspring of an eagle is and eagle. What is the offspring of God?
Here's a hint. Verse 6 is the one you wanted. Not verses 7 and 8 like you posted.
Please explain.
What did he empty himself of? Traditional trinitarian doctrine is that he added a human nature to himself, making him greater, not lesser.

Don't know. Don't care What is written is enough for me. He made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I would say Jesus experientially emptied Himself of equal status with God to that of a non-omniscient man, under the influence of human nature, taking the definition of a man.

I would say He did have a temporary angelic body but that is not the emptying referred to.

So... according to Protestant Trinitarians like yourself...

While the second Person of the Trinity was walking the Earth, the second Person of the Trinity was NOT of equal status with either the first Person of the Trinity or the third Person of the Trinity.

I would like to hear from the other Trinitarians on this forum.

Trinitarians, do you agree or disagree that the second Person of the Trinity "experientially emptied Himself of equal status with God"?

According to the Catholic Catechism, "what he was, he remained" so he always remained in equal status with God.

But I am curious what the Protestant Trinitarians on this forum believe.


P.S.

I believe Jesus is YHWH God incarnate, and nothing changed about YHWH when he also became incarnate.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 

Stephen

Active member
Wrong! I don't rely on "translations" I read both Biblical languages and a few more. Plus I have BDB Hebrew lexicon and BDAG Greek lexicon and the appropriate grammars. And for the OT I can refer to the 1917 Jewish Publicaion Society OT and the EOB NT.

Yes, and you still insist on the NIV as correct, and the others as wrong. As


See if you can follow this logic. The offspring of a cow is a cow. The offspring of an eagle is and eagle. What is the offspring of God?

Us. Adam is the son of God. We are begotten sons and daughters of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God.

(Arguing that Jesus is God's offspring is interesting from a Trinitarian, as it makes you an Arian, i.e. the belief that there was once a time when Jesus did not exist)


Please explain.

Read the verses carefully, and compare them to your assertion. Verses 7-8 do not say that Jesus was equal to God in any translation. Even your cherry picked translation.


Don't know. Don't care What is written is enough for me. He made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,

None of these phrases indicate that Jesus "emptied himself" of something that somehow less than God after being equal with God. Thus your preferred translation doesn't fit with the rest of scripture.
 

OldShepherd

Active member
Yes, and you still insist on the NIV as correct, and the others as wrong. As
And your point is?
Us. Adam is the son of God. We are begotten sons and daughters of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God.
Wrong! Adam was created. We are NOT begotten sons and daughters of God we are adopted c.f. Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5. Jesus is the only, unique Son of God μονογενης υιος
(Arguing that Jesus is God's offspring is interesting from a Trinitarian, as it makes you an Arian, i.e. the belief that there was once a time when Jesus did not exist)
The only unique, son of God is God in the same way that the offspring of, e.g. a cow is a cow not something else. God made the rule I didn't.
Read the verses carefully, and compare them to your assertion. Verses 7-8 do not say that Jesus was equal to God in any translation. Even your cherry picked translation.
Vss. 7 and 8 do not negate vs. 6.
None of these phrases indicate that Jesus "emptied himself" of something that somehow less than God after being equal with God. Thus your preferred translation doesn't fit with the rest of scripture.
You are entitled to your opinion.
 

civic

Well-known member
In other words...

What do you think Jesus "emptied himself" of?

I say it was his glorious body.
Nothing

Phil 2:7
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. KJV

The Son added a human nature to His Divine Nature as God(equal with God, Equality with God)was His and did not need to reach or grasp it for it was His.

Read the CONTEXT- Its about the Incarnation, the Humility of Christ. He laid aside His privilege's to use His Deity and was in submission to the Fathers will as a SERVANT. He became the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 to become sin on our behalf.

A text without the context is a pretext for a proof text. You espouse the kenosis heresy.

At no time did the Son give up His Deity but it was veiled , His Glory was veiled most of the time. But He did let His Disciples see that Glory on a few occasions.

Look at Philippians 2:6 closely. "who, (meaning Jesus Christ) ALTHOUGH (or in spite of the fact) that He existed in the form of God, ended up taking the form of a servant, by being made in the likeness of men." He was God all along but suspended the use of His attributes by taking the form of a servant/man.

This is also why the Apostle Paul at Philippians 2:1-4 explains to the Philippians not to be selfish, conceited and put others first before yourself just like Jesus Christ did when Paul says at vs 5 to have the same attitude as Jesus Christ. Now do you get it ?

hope this helps !!!
 

Stephen

Active member
And your point is?

Cherry picking translations to assert doctrine is a terrible foundation.

Wrong! Adam was created. We are NOT begotten sons and daughters of God we are adopted c.f. Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5. Jesus is the only, unique Son of God μονογενης υιος

I'm sorry you believe that you aren't begotten of God. The bible says that you are.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


The only unique, son of God is God in the same way that the offspring of, e.g. a cow is a cow not something else. God made the rule I didn't.

You construction isn't parallel. If your argument was parallel, it would say:
  • The unique son of a god is god and not something else
  • The unique calf of a cow is cow and not something else.

You are equivocating "God" the identity with "God" the species.

Vss. 7 and 8 do not negate vs. 6.

I didn't say that they did. I simply pointed out that the verse citation didn't support the claim. Which is why 3 posts ago I decided to let it go, but you continued to repeat the error even after I pointed it out.


You are entitled to your opinion.

Yes, we all are.
 

Kampioen

Member
So... according to Protestant Trinitarians like yourself...

While the second Person of the Trinity was walking the Earth, the second Person of the Trinity was NOT of equal status with either the first Person of the Trinity or the third Person of the Trinity.

I would like to hear from the other Trinitarians on this forum.

Trinitarians, do you agree or disagree that the second Person of the Trinity "experientially emptied Himself of equal status with God"?

According to the Catholic Catechism, "what he was, he remained" so he always remained in equal status with God.

But I am curious what the Protestant Trinitarians on this forum believe.

P.S.

I believe Jesus is YHWH God incarnate, and nothing changed about YHWH when he also became incarnate.
Nothing non-experiential changed. Only the experiential due to the influence of the non-omniscient human senses/nature.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Nothing non-experiential changed. Only the experiential due to the influence of the non-omniscient human senses/nature.

Just to clarify, do you AGREE or DISAGREE with this precise statement...

While the second Person of the Trinity was walking the Earth, the second Person of the Trinity was NOT of equal status with either the first Person of the Trinity or the third Person of the Trinity.

I am not a Trinitarian so I disagree with that statement.
 

Kampioen

Member
Just to clarify, do you AGREE or DISAGREE with this precise statement...

While the second Person of the Trinity was walking the Earth, the second Person of the Trinity was NOT of equal status with either the first Person of the Trinity or the third Person of the Trinity.

I am not a Trinitarian so I disagree with that statement.
That statement would be true experientially and in treatment but non-experientially He is equal/uniform.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
That statement would be true experientially and in treatment but non-experientially He is equal/uniform.

So according to your TRINITARIAN view...

The only thing that the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCES is being of unequal status with the first Person of the Trinity.

What about the third Person of the Trinity...

Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the third Person of the Trinity?

Does the third Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity?
 

Kampioen

Member
So according to your TRINITARIAN view...

The only thing that the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCES is being of unequal status with the first Person of the Trinity.

What about the third Person of the Trinity...

Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the third Person of the Trinity?

Does the third Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity?
It's not a matter individual experiences, except for the incarnate Word. But comparative to between a man and his conscience and subconscious.
 

OldShepherd

Active member
So according to your TRINITARIAN view...
The only thing that the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCES is being of unequal status with the first Person of the Trinity.
What about the third Person of the Trinity...
Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the third Person of the Trinity?

Does the third Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity?
Before endlessly criticizing Trinitarians perhaps you should actually read the New Testament.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
…..Some heterodox religious groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor 12:11), a self, (John 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
…..There are, at least, seventy three (73) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.
Names of the Spirit (7)
1.
God -Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
7. Spirit of Jesus – Acts of the Apostles 16:7
Attributes of (9)
7.
Eternal –Hebrews 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:7-8
10. Distinct will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.​
11. Loves - Romans 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts of the Apostles 8:29; Acts of the Apostles 13:2
13. Distinct mind from the father and the son– Romans 8:27
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.​
14. Distinct self from the father and the son – John 16:13
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16.
Dove - Matthew 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts of the Apostles 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19.
Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts of the Apostles 7:51
21. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts of the Apostles 5:3
23. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25.
Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1
Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Galatians 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Peter 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts of the Apostles 13:24; Acts of the Apostles 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts of the Apostles 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Corinthians 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts of the Apostles 2:4; Acts of the Apostles 4:29-31; Acts of the Apostles 5:18-20; Acts of the Apostles 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts of the Apostles 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1,14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts of the Apostles 13:4
37 Sent - Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Ephesians 3:16; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts of the Apostles 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[92] Total scripture
Sources Consulted:
CARM.org
DTL.org/Trinity
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
It's not a matter individual experiences, except for the incarnate Word. But comparative to between a man and his conscience and subconscious.

These are YES or NO questions.

Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity? You said NO.

Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the third Person of the Trinity?

Does the third Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity?


Are you able to answer the last two questions with a YES or NO.
 

Kampioen

Member
These are YES or NO questions.

Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity? You said NO.
No, as far as human weakness/natiure is concerned but …

Yes in as far as some preincarnate memories. Yes in as far as post incarnate existence.

Yes in as far as the Word is concerned.

Does the second Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the third Person of the Trinity?
Same …

No, as far as human weakness but …

Yes in as far as some preincarnate memories. Yes in as far as post incarnate existence.

Yes in as far as the Word is concerned.

Does the third Person of the Trinity EXPERIENCE being of equal status with the first Person of the Trinity?
Yes.
Are you able to answer the last two questions with a YES or NO.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I believe that from the moment of creation Jesus was a human with a glorious body (just like he is now). But when he was born to Mary he exchanged his glorious body for a mortal body.

So the "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men" refers to when Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins.

Now, how do YOU explain it?


Trinitarians normally say "what he was, he remained" and "human nature was assumed". (Catholic Catechism 469-470) So nothing was "given up" so to speak.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

Paul is instructing the Philippians how to conduct themselves by using Jesus as their example. They too are to empty themselves and humbly serve others just as the man Jesus did. Emptying themselves is what true followers of Jesus do.
 
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