Please give us those scriptures

The saga of yada-yada continues unabated--without the first verse of scripture in this post.
Yada, yada, yada, the saga of false accusations against us goes unabated from you....I gave you two Scriptures in post no. 3 on this thread:


CrowCross gave you others on here in post no. 5. He typed in big letters, so you won't miss them.

You ignored both of our posts.

So, the idea that we have not given you any Bible verses is a bald-faced lie--isn't it, dberrie?
 
She gave you these scriptures several times, and kept posting links to where she responded to you.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have everlasting life."

"For the wages of sin is death; but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I found it easily in her posts. You have not even looked.
Thank you, Magdalena. CrowCross gave 4 more on here, which were also ignored.

So, the idea that we have never given any bible verses on here is a lie. We did and have. And you, I, and CrowCross proved it.
 
Eph 3:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Would you like another similiar verse????

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Would you like a 3rd?

2nd Tim 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.

How about one from Romans?

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


I have a few more if you would like to see them.
CrowCross, I just noticed--you have Eph.3:8, instead of 2:8. Just an FYI.
 
Has anyone taken note of the fact some people use a lot more effort in trying to affirm something--than it would take if they just posted it for all to behold?

Bonnie has claimed two scriptures--which she insists she posted somewhere.

How much effort would it take to just post those scriptures, rather than to insist she posted them?

Has anyone gone through this thread and discovered how empty the posts are of those scriptures which was requested in the OP?

They come up with sundry excuses and wild explanations, dancing through the streets proclaiming their compliance--empty of the goods.

Utterly false. Your posts are the empty ones!
It's time to produce those scriptures.
And how much effort would it take for YOU to move your mouse with a flick of your wrist, put the cursor over the link on post no. 3 on this thread, tap your finger on your mouse, then, when the page opens up, read what was highlighted in purple, which I told you it would be?

But just to be nice, I went back and posted the actual 2 verses in post no. 3 on here, along with the explanation as to why your church does not teach those 2 Bible verses, which are about eternal life. I would bet a cookie you never bothered to read post no. 3 on here, but if you did, you never bothered to go to the link and open it up to read it. How much effort would it have taken for YOU to do THAT?
 
Another post, rambling through the winding streets of personal introspection, without the first verse of scripture.

Please give us those scriptures.

Folks--the critics seem to be having a hard time in coming up with the scriptures. If the LDS are so far off the track--it seems their fingers would be stomping out those scriptures on their keypads.

Crickets.

Again--please give us those scriptures.
What is it about me telling you that it isn't a matter of you having a different Bible than us with less scripture. The problem is Mormonism ignoring much of it, and un-rightly dividing what they do acknowledge away from the whole of scripture. You're posting a challenge that no one is challenging you with, lol.
 
Oops. at least the link works. Thanks.

I did notice the mormons ran from it.
They run from all of the "and not by works" verses, that deal with eternal life. They must work and work and work some more, to earn eternal life--Mormonese for exaltation to godhood in the supposed CK after death.
 
They run from all of the "and not by works" verses, that deal with eternal life. They must work and work and work some more, to earn eternal life--Mormonese for exaltation to godhood in the supposed CK after death.
I believe one could start a new thread on that topic..Posting Eph 2:8 and asking what does not by works mean and not one mormon would reply.
 
I believe one could start a new thread on that topic..Posting Eph 2:8 and asking what does not by works mean and not one mormon would reply.
Oh, they might--they might say, "But Paul meant works of the law here", even though Paul did not say so in this verse. But in context, reading vs. 10, he meant good works.
 
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even though Paul dud not say so in this verse.
Isn't that ignoring the context? However, I would say that once one understands that Grace is the free gift, no work needed, the indeed.it is without any works. But salvation is not free.
 
Isn't that ignoring the context?

No. In fact, vs. 10 gives us more context.
However, I would say that once one understands that Grace is the free gift, no work needed, the indeed.it is without any works. But salvation is not free.
WHAT IS "without works"?

Once again, you just contradicted yourself, and made Paul a liar: "For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23)
 
No. In fact, vs. 10 gives us more context.
Your statement specifically avoided referencing any other verses. I recognize that there is context from the other verses. But you said, Paul did not say so in that verse. That is the very definition of avoiding the context.
WHAT IS "without works"?
In context, it is Grace that we receive without any works on our part. Salvation is a different story.
Once again, you just contradicted yourself, and made Paul a liar: "For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23)
I didn't contradict myself. The wages of sin is still death regardless of the gift. The word free is not in there. And free is not implied simply because it's a gift. If it was then Paul would be contradicting himself.

Verse 23 is a summation of the previous verses which are very specific about how one obtains salvation and it is through work through the end of their lives.

verse 22, "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life"

Set free from sin is the free gift that went to all mankind regardless of what they do or what they believe. No one had to do anything to receive this free gift.

If you look at the Greek word used for "slaves",. You will see that there is a subtle nuance about it. Specifically, not that we have no choice but that we have the benefits of being a slave. An example of that would be that as a slave the burden of consequences are removed from your shoulders and are now the burden of the person to whom you are enslaved.

The fruit you reap, obviously implies work especially when joined with the word reap. So the fruits of the gospel implies that we invest our faith in the laws and ordinances of the gospel which then leads to something. And without applying that work we cannot reach what it leads to. Which in this case is holiness.

The outcome is eternal life, it is again obvious that through the fruits that we reap and attain to holiness if we obtain the holiness the outcome will be eternal life. It's not free. We have to work for it.

So then it makes sense that in verse 23, the wages of sin is death goes to those who do not reap the fruit of the gospel. These reaped sin. And as a result, they will not receive eternal life. So it would appear that eternal life is not free even though it is a gift.
 
Your statement specifically avoided referencing any other verses.

No, it didn't. I referenced other verses.
I recognize that there is context from the other verses. But you said, Paul did not say so in that verse. That is the very definition of avoiding the context.

I said vs. 10 gives more context, in Eph. 2.
In context, it is Grace that we receive without any works on our part. Salvation is a different story.

We receive grace--God's UNdeserved favor--UNTO SALVATION, which is eternal life.
I didn't contradict myself.

Yes, you did.
The wages of sin is still death regardless of the gift.
True. But the contradiction is that grace is free, but salvation--eternal life--is NOT IS the contradiction. "For it is by GRACE you are SAVED, through faith, and this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast."

So, yes, you contradict yourself all over the place. We are SAVED by grace through faith, and it isn't our own doing but is the Gift of God. Is that so hard to understand?
The word free is not in there.

True, but then what is the definition of "gift"? From Oxford languages dictionary: "
noun
  1. a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present:
    "a Christmas gift" · "a gift shop"


  1. What part of "without payment" do you not understand?


    And free is not implied simply because it's a gift.
    See the definition of "gift" above.

  2. If it was then Paul would be contradicting himself.
    HE is doing no such thing, but YOU are.

    Verse 23 is a summation of the previous verses which are very specific about how one obtains salvation and it is through work through the end of their lives.

    verse 22, "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life"

    Set free from sin is the free gift that went to all mankind regardless of what they do or what they believe. No one had to do anything to receive this free gift.

    If you look at the Greek word used for "slaves",. You will see that there is a subtle nuance about it. Specifically, not that we have no choice but that we have the benefits of being a slave. An example of that would be that as a slave the burden of consequences are removed from your shoulders and are now the burden of the person to whom you are enslaved.

    The fruit you reap, obviously implies work especially when joined with the word reap. So the fruits of the gospel implies that we invest our faith in the laws and ordinances of the gospel which then leads to something. And without applying that work we cannot reach what it leads to. Which in this case is holiness.

    The outcome is eternal life, it is again obvious that through the fruits that we reap and attain to holiness if we obtain the holiness the outcome will be eternal life. It's not free. We have to work for it.

    So then it makes sense that in verse 23, the wages of sin is death goes to those who do not reap the fruit of the gospel. These reaped sin. And as a result, they will not receive eternal life. So it would appear that eternal life is not free even though it is a gift.
again, you contradicted yourself. You say "it would appear that eternal life is not free even though it is a gift." ?????? But St, Paul contradicts you and says that it most definitely IS, in Rom. 6:23. Whom should I believe? YOU? OR the Apostle Paul?

Your statement specifically avoided referencing any other verses.

No, it doesn't.
I recognize that there is context from the other verses. But you said, Paul did not say so in that verse. That is the very definition of avoiding the context.

I gave more context, vs. 10 in Eph. 2.
In context, it is Grace that we receive without any works on our part. Salvation is a different story.

Another oxymoron. Grace, God's undeserved favor towards us on account of Christ Jesus, is the very CAUSE of our salvation--"For it is by GRACE YOU ARE SAVED, through faith, and that is not your own doing; it is the GIFT OF GOD, and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast."

GRACE is the gift of God. Faith is the Gift of God. Salvation is the gift of God. What part of "gift" do you not understand?
I didn't contradict myself. The wages of sin is still death regardless of the gift.

I agree. But you still contradicted yourself.
The word free is not in there. And free is not implied simply because it's a gift.

Yes it is, because the very definition of "gift" is a thing "given willingly to someone without payment; a present".
One does NOT pay for a gift; it is therefore, FREE.

If it was then Paul would be contradicting himself.

No, it is you that is contradicting yourself. Grace is free but salvation is not????
Verse 23 is a summation of the previous verses which are very specific about how one obtains salvation and it is through work through the end of their lives.

Yes, let's take a look at the rest of Rom. 6:

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ​

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness​

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you USED to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

I see nothing in this entire chapter about works righteousness, and having to EARN SALVATION. The very last verse refutes that claim--eternal life is THE GIFT OF GOD in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And a gift is always free. That is the very definition of "gift."
 
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Part 2 for boJ;

verse 22, "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life"

So? We are slaves to God, because we belong to Him, by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. And, ironically, that "slavery" has set us free--free NOT to live in sin, but free to live in RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Set free from sin is the free gift that went to all mankind regardless of what they do or what they believe. No one had to do anything to receive this free gift.

there is a bit more to it than that. Jesus paid the price for all our sins, on the cross (NOT mostly in Gethsemane, as your church erroneously teaches), but all too often, people will reject that wondrous gift and resist the HS, so that they will refuse to believe in Jesus Christ for their eternal life.
If you look at the Greek word used for "slaves",. You will see that there is a subtle nuance about it. Specifically, not that we have no choice but that we have the benefits of being a slave. An example of that would be that as a slave the burden of consequences are removed from your shoulders and are now the burden of the person to whom you are enslaved.

This is true up to a point. But ironically, being a slave to God through Jesus Christ sets us free! Free from the consequences of sin, which is eternal death in hell--"For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."


The fruit you reap, obviously implies work especially when joined with the word reap.

We do not and cannot 'work" for our eternal life. "And NOT by works." What part of "and NOT by works" do you not understand?
So the fruits of the gospel implies that we invest our faith in the laws and ordinances of the gospel

"Laws and ordinances of the Gospel" is Mormonspeak for what your church teaches about doing all of those temple works in order to be "exalted" to "godhood" in the CK after death--doesn't it? But there is zero in the NT about these ordinances, especially the endowment ceremony.
which then leads to something.

yes--eternal death in hell for those who follow the "laws and ordinances of the gospel" as described in your church, which include ALL of the ordinance and works one must do in your temples, and KEEP DOING IF they want to be exalted to godhood in the CK after death.
And without applying that work we cannot reach what it leads to. Which in this case is holiness.

Mormon temple works are found nowhere in the Bible, and lead to eternal death in hell, not eternal life.
The outcome is eternal life, it is again obvious that through the fruits that we reap and attain to holiness if we obtain the holiness the outcome will be eternal life. It's not free. We have to work for it.

MORMONS must "work for it" with their any temple works and ordinances and covenants they must do and make in those temples. But these are found nowhere taught in the NT.

But the good fruit we bear we bear IN salvation, not FOR salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved. They are the EVIDENCE that we are saved, not the cause. There is a VAST difference between the two. IF some on the Roman church continued to live a life dominated by sin, then that would be evidence that they did not truly believe the Gospel message, but only gave lip service to it. That is why Paul writes what he did in Rom. 6.
So then it makes sense that in verse 23, the wages of sin is death goes to those who do not reap the fruit of the gospel.

Not exactly. Eternal death in hell goes to those who continue to live a life in sin, and do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, thus rejecting the free gift of eternal life. And it is A GIFT, and a GIFT is ALWAYS free. That is the very essence of "gift."
These reaped sin. And as a result, they will not receive eternal life.

They reaped sin because they did not repent and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior. This was BEFORE the Romans Paul was writing to had believed the Gospel and believed in it.
"17 But thanks be to God that, though you USED to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
So it would appear that eternal life is not free even though it is a gift.
This is an oxymoronic statement, boJ. Paul clearly and unequivocally states that it most certainly IS: "But the free GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."

One does NOT earn a gift. A gift, by its very definition is UNearned, and given freely, without payment.
 
However, this has gone off topic from the OP. I did give 2 Scriptures and also explained the Mormon "take" on them, that their version of "eternal life"--exaltation to godhood--MUST be worked for. It isn't a gift. But that is not what Paul says; he says that the "free gift of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord." And eternal life in the Bible is true salvation, living in heaven with our dear Savior and our dear Heavenly Father for all eternity.
 
Yada, yada, yada, the saga of false accusations against us goes unabated from you....I gave you two Scriptures in post no. 3 on this thread:


CrowCross gave you others on here in post no. 5. He typed in big letters, so you won't miss them.

You ignored both of our posts.

So, the idea that we have not given you any Bible verses is a bald-faced lie--isn't it, dberrie?

Another empty claim which hasn't the first scripture.
 
Another empty claim which hasn't the first scripture.
Gee, so sorry you don't believe John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 are not part of Scripture. Because those are the two Scriptures I cited, which I showed your church does NOT believe.

But they ARE Scripture and I DID give them to you, right here:


CrowCross also gave you 2scriptures from the Bible. I guess that you don't think they are Scripture, either--huh?
 
Yes it is, because the very definition of "gift" is a thing "given willingly to someone without payment; a present".
One does NOT pay for a gift; it is therefore, FREE.

If it is free--then why do you claim one must ante up faith in order to receive the free gift?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints preach it is a free gift to all men, just as it states. No faith, obedience, works, belief, endurance, etc--necessary.

Free. Unconditional. Christ alone. Done. Over. Finished. Nailed to the cross.

And it "came upon all men"--when Christ finished it--not when you add your faith to it.

You, on the other hand--testify it takes faith to receive it.

So--which one really believes it is a free gift to all men?

Also--if all men receive it--and all men don't have faith--then how are you claiming it takes faith in Christ to receive it?
 
If it is free--then why do you claim one must ante up faith in order to receive the free gift?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"for it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."

Grace, faith, and salvation are ALL the gift of God. WE don't work for any of them. But remember what Jesus said about doing the work of God: "this is the work of God: that you BELIEVE on Him Whom God has sent." It is the HS who works saving faith in our hearts via the Gospel message. It is all God's doing.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints preach it is a free gift to all men, just as it states. No faith, obedience, works, belief, endurance, etc--necessary.

The LDS teaches that salvation is resurrection from the dead into an immortal body and that it goes to ALL people, no matter what. This is "general salvation", but that is false. It has redefined the word. It is NOT a gift if a person spends eternity in hell in an immortal body. The Bible uses salvation and eternal life interchangeably.
Free. Unconditional. Christ alone. Done. Over. Finished. Nailed to the cross.

OH, good, so we can have eternal life in heaven with God and Jesus Christ through all eternity, simply by trusting and believing in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross--no temple works necessary! NO endowments necessary! NO observing the WoW is necessary! NO having to be married and have that marriage sealed in Mormon temples! NO temple buildings are necessary! NO wearing temple undergarments with Masonic symbols on them is necessary!

JUST faith in Christ alone, who nailed ALL our sins on the cross, who took our punishment onto Himself "and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."

Thanks for finally admitting it, dberrie! "It is finished!"
And it "came upon all men"--when Christ finished it--not when you add your faith to it.

Sure it came upon all people, but NOT ALL PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE IT. Some, too many, in fact, will reject that wondrous gift of the forgiveness of sins.
You, on the other hand--testify it takes faith to receive it.

That is what the Bible actually says: "Grace through faith." But then, grace and faith are two sides to the same coin--and BOTH are the gift of God! "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life."

What does "believe in" mean, dberrie?
So--which one really believes it is a free gift to all men?

WE do: for the wages of sin is death, but the free GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." s

Mormons have to work for their 'eternal life" which is Mormonese for exaltation to godhood in the CK after death, and requires Temple works to be "worthy" of it.
Also--if all men receive it--and all men don't have faith--then how are you claiming it takes faith in Christ to receive it?
If I offer you a wondrous gift, free of charge, and you refuse to accept it--does that make the gift any less free?
 
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