Please give us those scriptures

Too lazy to look?
Must be, since it is on the first page of this thread, post no. 3, from me, and post no. 5 from CrowCross.

This reminds me of a 60 Minutes I once saw about 30 years ago, about some day care centers--both good and bad. The crew of the show secretly taped a worker slapping a one year old baby girl on the face for being fussy. She screamed and screamed. I was almost sick with horror at it.

Afterward, the crew showed the tape to the day care's owner. She denied that the woman had ever slapped that baby, even though it was plain as broad daylight. Over and over again, she kept repeating, "she didn't slap that baby...she didn't slap that baby...."

But she DID! But she had to lie to herself that the woman had never hit the baby, to keep from having to face the truth--that she had hired a child abuser!

I think that is what we are seeing here. We actually give the Mormons on here what they ask for--bible verses, addressing their concerns and answering their questions, but they refuse to see the truth--that we did indeed do so, not once, but many times. They cannot face the truth that we CAN AND DID. They simply cannot face the hard truths that we show them, from our Bible verses and the points that we make from them, that prove them to be in error.
 
Gee, so sorry you don't believe John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 are not part of Scripture.
So, you toss to references in and claim you've presented an infallible case. If those were the only two verses in the Bible, our church easily meets the conditions of both. We believe and if the gift is free, then we have it as well as you.

The problem now arises that you get to judge who believes..LOL. The hubris amongst our critics. You don't get to judge and the gift is not yours to give it take away. It's not your gift even though you all think you are in a position to control it. Again, I laugh. You are not.

So, how does one know they believe? Do we have to ask our local Lutheran or some other "Christian" sect? I don't think so.

If we are to rely on Rom 6:23, you still have to overcome the fact that the wages of sin is death. You're not going to get that gift if you break the commandments. At least, that's what Rom 6:23 says. Ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.

So, now we have this scriptures, what are you going to do about those other peaky verses that tell us what to do to have eternal life? Ignore them? Jesus himself taught that if we want eternal life, we need to keep the commandments. Do I listen to him or to you?

Now, since those scripture agree with our theology, how are you claiming that they aren't part of our theology?
 
We receive grace--God's UNdeserved favor--UNTO SALVATION, which is eternal life.
Grace is free to all men, no works at all required. That's what we teach.

You've mangled that verse several times actually promoting the idea they salvation is free and faith is free to the point that every thing is free. Accept it's not. Your claims always end up requiring something on the part of the individual. They gotta believe or they gotta have faith (and that is a free gift too only that gift is one that God decides who gets it and who doesn't. Some people wake up in day and they have faith. Others wonder through life waiting and waiting but God just doesn't like them enough to give them that gift).
 
again, you contradicted yourself. You say "it would appear that eternal life is not free even though it is a gift." ??????
There is no contradiction. The word "free" is not there because it isn't free. Grace is free, it made us all free. Nothing we did made us free, that was all Jesus. None of us can change that. Eternal life, neverthenless, isn't free but it is a gift. That one we can reject. Think about that for a minute. If you can refuse it, then you have control over obtaining the gift. If you have time receive it to get it, it is a gift still but you have to do something to get it. And if you have to do something, they it a conditional gift which means it's not free but still a gift.

We reject that gift by breaking God's commandments. Can you still receive the gift if you break the commandments? Yes, but the price is much much higher. It gets harder and harder to obtain the gift the more frequently the commandments are broken.

So, again, Eph 2:8-9 grace is free, no works required. Salvation is obtained through faith, in connection with Rom 6:23, faith means don't break the commandments because of you do, the wages for doing so is death. If you keep them, the gift is eternal life. No contradiction whatsoever. I'm not sure why you keep overlooking the wages of sin part.
 
Grace, God's undeserved favor towards us on account of Christ Jesus, is the very CAUSE of our salvation
Nope. It's not the cause. It is simply a door or an opportunity in the context of Eph 2:8-9. The CAUSE is faith. It is through faith that we are saved by grace. So,.let's use the word gift in the place of grace to get an idea of what this means. It is their faith that we obtain the gift of salvation. Salvation becomes the undeserved favor and we obtain it through faith made possible by the free gift of grace to all men.

I doubt you'll bother giving the two seconds of consideration, but someone might. It might clarify how salvation isn't free but is still a gift.

The sad thing about this, IMO, is that you all totally ignore the implications of obtaining salvation through faith. If that is true, then salvation isn't free even if it is a gift.

I'm not going to waste my time with your bloviating. You make a lot of words to say nothing at all, straining at a gnat while swallowing the cow.

The idea that every gift is free is baloney. It may not cost us any money, but there are other requirements that may be needed to obtain the gift, as is the case with salvation. Obviously, if you might not get the gift, as is the case with salvation, then it can't be free in the same sense that grace is free which went to all men regardless of anything that they did or could do. I used the example of an endowments which is a gift that you have to meet certain requirements to obtain it in a previous post. That is the cost of salvation and that's what Eph 2:8-9 teaches.
 
Nope. It's not the cause. It is simply a door or an opportunity in the context of Eph 2:8-9.
No, it is not an "opportunity." And in context that is NOT what Paul wrote: "....and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast.'

Salvation/eternal life is free, boJ. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord."

what part of "free gift" do you not get, boJ? Paul didn't write that the "free gift of God" is the "opportunity" to work for eternal life, the "opportunity" to make ourselves "worthy" of it. Did he?
The CAUSE is faith. It is through faith that we are saved by grace. So,.let's use the word gift in the place of grace to get an idea of what this means. It is their faith that we obtain the gift of salvation. Salvation becomes the undeserved favor and we obtain it through faith made possible by the free gift of grace to all men.

You have stated, I think, that grace is a gift but salvation is NOT, that grace is free, but salvation is not. Yet, here you say we obtain the "gift of salvation." So, which is it? Is salvation--eternal life as the Bible uses "salvation"--the gift of God, or not?
I doubt you'll bother giving the two seconds of consideration, but someone might. It might clarify how salvation isn't free but is still a gift.

The sad thing about this, IMO, is that you all totally ignore the implications of obtaining salvation through faith.

No, we don't. Even faith is the "gift of God." We are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is the "gift of God" and NOT our own doing. Faith is what the HS works in us, via the gospel message. As Jesus said, in John: "This is the work of God: that you BELIEVE on Him Whom God has sent."
If that is true, then salvation isn't free even if it is a gift.

Once again, you have made an erroneous, oxymoronic statement. You first write above: "It is their faith that we obtain the gift of salvation." Then here you write "salvation isn't free even if it is a gift."

Totally contradictory! A GIFT by its very definition is FREE. It comes WITHOUT cost to the giftee. Once again, the definition, from Oxford Languages:

noun
  1. a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present:
I'm not going to waste my time with your bloviating. You make a lot of words to say nothing at all, straining at a gnat while swallowing the cow.

That is "camel" not "cow" but I am not bloviating. I mean, since when is quoting the Bible "bloviating"? And my words say plenty! You just don't want to see that, so you can keep the "testimony" of your church and its false teachings.
The idea that every gift is free is baloney.

No, it isn't. IF it costs the giftee something, then it isn't a gift, is it?
It may not cost us any money, but there are other requirements that may be needed to obtain the gift, as is the case with salvation. Obviously, if you might not get the gift, as is the case with salvation, then it can't be free in the same sense that grace is free which went to all men regardless of anything that they did or could do. I used the example of an endowments which is a gift that you have to meet certain requirements to obtain it in a previous post. That is the cost of salvation and that's what Eph 2:8-9 teaches.
Eternal life is the gift of God, but the reason all are not saved is that they reject that gift. That is on them, not God. They "resist the HS" as Stephen accused the Sanhedrin of doing, in Acts 7.

I can give you a wonderful gift, free of charge, but if you refuse it, does that make the gift any less free?
 
The part where salvation isn't free.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Where does Paul say salvation--eternal life--isn't free? In what universe is a gift something someone must earn?
 
"for it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."
Salvation isnt free if it is obtained through faith. You have to have faith if you're going to be saved. And, contrary to many your teachings, faith is not belief. You have to do something with that belief.
 
Salvation isnt free if it is obtained through faith. You have to have faith if you're going to be saved. And, contrary to many your teachings, faith is not belief. You have to do something with that belief.
You're missing the point. The very faith one has to believe the Gospel of Christ is, itself, a gift from God: That's what Ephesians 2 is stating - read it carefully. "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.................The gift is faith to believe in Jesus and and Biblical Gospel which is given to us by God's grace, which is unmerited favor.

God also gives the gift to repent of our sins:

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Acts 11:18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So, repentance and faith are both gifts given to Christian believers by God. And one must remember what is written in Ephesians 1:


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

From first to last, salvation is the work of God, not of men. The Mormons teach a works salvation, which is contrary to the Bible and therefore is "another gospel."
 
Salvation isnt free if it is obtained through faith.
Yes, it is free, because even fairh is the "gift of God." It is the HS who WORKS saving faith in our hearts through the Gospel message: "This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

So, did Jesus and Paul lie?
You have to have faith if you're going to be saved.

We can't "work" for faith. It is the gift of God. The HS works saving faith in us through the Gospel message. It is HIS work in us, not ours!
And, contrary to many your teachings, faith is not belief. You have to do something with that belief.
Faith and belief are synonyms. But a true and living faith is still the gift of God and God does not give us dead gifts. And that living faith enables us to bear good fruit pleasing to God. But we do them IN salvation, not FOR salvation. Please learn the difference.
 
Yes, it is free, because even fairh is the "gift of God." It is the HS who WORKS saving faith in our hearts through the Gospel message: "This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

So, did Jesus and Paul lie?


We can't "work" for faith. It is the gift of God. The HS works saving faith in us through the Gospel message. It is HIS work in us, not ours!

Faith and belief are synonyms. But a true and living faith is still the gift of God and God does not give us dead gifts. And that living faith enables us to bear good fruit pleasing to God. But we do them IN salvation, not FOR salvation. Please learn the difference.
They simply totally ignore what the Bible says!
 
And that's EXACTLY why we aren't Mormons.



Sorry, you don't get to give us "homework" assignments.
Get over yourself.

This forum is here for YOU to try to defend YOUR bankrupt and anti-Biblical beliefs.
Not for you to ask questions of us to challenged our OFF-TOPIC beliefs.
Questions?? Chuckle.... dubiety or apprehension of being able too... oh my!
 
Huh? This makes zero sense. "Dubiety"? "Apprehension of being able too"???
Does to me...Doubtfulness.... he Theo has a huge amount of apprehension and doubt he can prove Christianity into day churches is absolute truth...
 
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