Poll for Catholics: Are the justified a "new creation"?

Merton

Active member
Fellow Catholics,
many (perhaps all) posters here seem to think that RC teaching is that we do not become a "new creation."

Are we - after receiving the grace of justification - a new creation?
 
I'm not a Rc, but would you define what you believe becoming a new creation is and how, before becoming such, you receive justification.
I'd be happy to.

The "new creation" is God taking a sinner and making them into a righteous person.

God does this by drawing them (by having the Spirit inspire them to faith, repentance, hope and love for God so as to call on God) and giving them to Jesus, to become members in Christ's body (baptism/immersion/union into Christ).

From Christ, the person will receive the Spirit. The Spirit will pour love into their heart, changing the heart of stone into a heart of compassion/love/'flesh.' Love is the power and force that moves us to help others, and also the power and force that prevents us from doing harm to others. The Spirit also causes a renewal of our mind, so as to be able to put on our mind on the Spirit (and not on 'the flesh' of our sinful desires). Love might also be what affects our minds to give us the renewal of our mind - but perhaps love is geared to our motive force to act and a different force from the Spirit is geared to the renewing of our mind. So we call what the Spirit gives us "sanctifying grace" that would cover both. The Spirit gives us the new heart and renewed mind that causes us to both want but also now be able to do what is right, i.e., we become righteous.

It is the fulfillment of the prophesied new covenant, that God would cause us to want to do what is right, by giving us a new heart and mind.
 
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Where does Mary fit in?
You can become a new creation and even saved on the last day from the wrath without having heard about Mary.
Mary's role is in leading people to her son.
Historically obviously she allowed God to bring Jesus into this world through her.
Also psychologically, and especially in very male-oriented societies, since God/Christ/the Spirit make us a new creation by pouring love into our hearts (to give us the new heart of flesh), a person needs to be receptive and open to love and all it brings: compassion and kindness and patience and long-suffering. Since these are considered to be feminine qualities, then people and especially men need to be open to feminine qualities. The shorthand for that is to show devotion to Mary, because in accepting her, she will lead you towards accepting her son.
 
I'd be happy to.

The "new creation" is God taking a sinner and making them into a righteous person.

God does this by drawing them (by having the Spirit inspire them to faith, repentance, hope and love for God so as to call on God) and giving them to Jesus, to become members in Christ's body (baptism/immersion/union into Christ).

From Christ, the person will receive the Spirit. The Spirit will pour love into their heart, changing the heart of stone into a heart of compassion/love/'flesh.' Love is the power and force that moves us to help others, and also the power and force that prevents us from doing harm to others. The Spirit also causes a renewal of our mind, so as to be able to put on our mind on the Spirit (and not on 'the flesh' of our sinful desires). Love might also be what affects our minds to give us the renewal of our mind - but perhaps love is geared to our motive force to act and a different force from the Spirit is geared to the renewing of our mind. So we call what the Spirit gives us "sanctifying grace" that would cover both. The Spirit gives us the new heart and renewed mind that causes us to both want but also now be able to do what is right, i.e., we become righteous.

It is the fulfillment of the prophesied new covenant, that God would cause us to want to do what is right, by giving us a new heart and mind.
Do you have to submit to the pope for salvation?
 
How is one, who has never heard about Mary, led to her son?
You can be led to Jesus without hearing about Mary. If you're reading a bible, it would be hard to miss Mary, but from the speech of a preacher more likely. Paul doesn't seem to have mentioned Mary in his preaching, from what has come down to us.
Politically correct statement?
I think Mary would only have a direct role in God making us a new creation (saving us) if the love that the Spirit places in our heart from Christ came to us through Mary. In other words, adding to the revelation that God's life/love comes to us only through Christ, that it be further "revealed' that Mary picks up this love from the Spirit and provides it to us as the last step in the chain. It doesn't faze me to think of Mary as helping in some external way, on the sidelines as I outlined, but it would give me major pause to think of her as being personally within me as a direct mediator/channel of love into my heart. And I think that this is what is also giving the Catholic Church pause, and why they haven't declared her being Mediatrix a dogma, because it is very open to misinterpretation.
 
Paul doesn't seem to have mentioned Mary in his preaching, from what has come down to us.
Because the REAL MARY (Jesus Mom) ISN'T IMPORTANT in the Gospel message, and HAS NOTHING TO DO with bringing sinners to salvation.
it would give me major pause to think of her as being personally within me as a direct mediator/channel of love into my heart. And I think that this is what is also giving the Catholic Church pause, and why they haven't declared her being Mediatrix a dogma, because it is very open to misinterpretation.
Probably because there are those within the Roman Catholic organization the understant that their whole "Mary thing" is nothing but garbage.
 
You can be led to Jesus without hearing about Mary. If you're reading a bible, it would be hard to miss Mary, but from the speech of a preacher more likely. Paul doesn't seem to have mentioned Mary in his preaching, from what has come down to us.
The Bible leads us to Jesus, not Mary; that is correct.

I think Mary would only have a direct role in God making us a new creation (saving us) if the love that the Spirit places in our heart from Christ came to us through Mary.
Nowhere taught in scripture, by Jesus, nor by his apostles.
 
It can be implicit, so long as you have been reborn through Christ and are following the Spirit.
Submitting to the pope is implicit? Where in the bible is anything salvific merely implied? So theres a chance you can go to hell because you didn't do something implied. And no, there is no papacy in the n.t. therefore no pope, therefore nothing to submit to.
 
The BIBLE says that a Born Again Christian is a "new Creation" in Christ (2 Cor 5:17). If the Catholic Church disagrees, they're simply DEAD WRONG.
No, the Catholic Church does not disagree.
The question is whether there were any individual RC posters here who would disagree.

One main reason the Catholic Church did not agree with the Reformation (as far as Justification) is that they wanted to make sure people knew they had to be reborn. Faith alone without rebirth would not enter them into heaven.
 
You can become a new creation and even saved on the last day from the wrath without having heard about Mary.
Mary's role is in leading people to her son.
Historically obviously she allowed God to bring Jesus into this world through her.
Also psychologically, and especially in very male-oriented societies, since God/Christ/the Spirit make us a new creation by pouring love into our hearts (to give us the new heart of flesh), a person needs to be receptive and open to love and all it brings: compassion and kindness and patience and long-suffering. Since these are considered to be feminine qualities, then people and especially men need to be open to feminine qualities. The shorthand for that is to show devotion to Mary, because in accepting her, she will lead you towards accepting her son.
Mary's role is in leading people to her son.
Thats every believers role. Its called the great commission.

Historically obviously she allowed God to bring Jesus into this world through her.
A creature 'allowed' God to do something? She was told what would happen. She wasn't asked.

a person needs to be receptive and open to love and all it brings: compassion and kindness and patience and long-suffering. Since these are considered to be feminine qualities
Says who? I'd say they are gifts of the Spirit; Gal 5.. And the Holy Spirit is never referred to as feminine.

then people and especially men need to be open to feminine qualities.
Here it comes...wait for it...

The shorthand for that is to show devotion to Mary, because in accepting her, she will lead you towards accepting her son.

There ya go, mary first THEN Jesus. And shorthand...not a shred of scripture to back any of this up. And why is it always mary? Why not show devotion to your own mother? And where are we told or is implied to 'accept' mary? You sound like Ligouri.
 
But RCc dogma is you must, repeat must, submit to the pope for salvation. There is nothing, no thing, implicit nor Biblical in such heresy.
You can receive baptism in a non-RC church and be reborn and live your life by the Spirit and enter heaven.

You will have met the criteria for receiving the Spirit (believed in your heart), met the criteria for being reborn (become a member in Christ and received a new heart and renewal of the mind from the Spirit), and if you lived by the Spirit met the criteria of producing good fruit to be looked at on the final judgment. More importantly, you will have within you (love) the thing you need in order to see God, who is love.

What you cannot do is to go against your conscience. You cannot, knowing that the Catholic Church is true and the Pope its head, refuse to enter.
But you obviously don't believe the Church is true, so you're not going against conscience.
You don't have to be correct in what you think the Catholic Church teaches. You're not rejecting the Church but your belief as to what the Church is and teaches - and you must never go against your conscience. You would be committing a sin if you did.
 
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