Poll for Catholics: Are the justified a "new creation"?

Fellow Catholics,
many (perhaps all) posters here seem to think that RC teaching is that we do not become a "new creation."

Are we - after receiving the grace of justification - a new creation?
If Catholics hold to their belief in infused righteousness, then that's inconsistent with becoming a new creation. At best, it means a [Catholic] believer can do new things, but only under his own power, until he lets the boulder slip back down the hill, but he cannot be a new creation.
 
Fellow Catholics,
many (perhaps all) posters here seem to think that RC teaching is that we do not become a "new creation."

Are we - after receiving the grace of justification - a new creation?
the issue is that Catholics and non Catholic Christians are using different meaning for these terms.

To Catholics: a person is "initially" justified when they are baptized as an infant
and that person (infant) is a new creature because the stain of original sin is removed and they have an indelible mark.
 
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No. Thankfully I am Spirit filled and being led into all truth by the Holy Spirit
My apologies. I see how my wording can be construed that way. But no, I wasn't saying that you yourself were pharisaic but that since you believe the Catholic Church is pharisaic then you will read whatever they write in a pharisaic way - that the CC means it in a pharisaic way.
If someone lies am I to say, "well, let me hear the rest of the lie to see if it's believable?". No. We've been down this road before. Rc's have been challenged to prove RCism using the Bible, the one thing that we would believe were it presented as the proof, which they admit they cannot.
In this OP, I am trying to show that RCism believes that it is necessary to be reborn as a new creation. "Unless you are reborn you cannot enter heaven." I assume you believe the same. We can discuss next what it means to be reborn, but I was starting with the first step of saying that there needs to be a new creation.
 
My apologies. I see how my wording can be construed that way. But no, I wasn't saying that you yourself were pharisaic but that since you believe the Catholic Church is pharisaic then you will read whatever they write in a pharisaic way - that the CC means it in a pharisaic way.

In this OP, I am trying to show that RCism believes that it is necessary to be reborn as a new creation. "Unless you are reborn you cannot enter heaven." I assume you believe the same. We can discuss next what it means to be reborn, but I was starting with the first step of saying that there needs to be a new creation.
But from other RCs they do not understand what born again means. They think it means they are just cleansed from the so called original sin. But being born again is much, much more than that.
 
In this OP, I am trying to show that RCism believes that it is necessary to be reborn as a new creation.
But "RCism" doesn't believe that. To the contrary, they believe righteousness is infused and that it's up to you to keep it.

You're still the same old sinful creation.
 
the issue is that Catholics and non Catholic Christians are using different meaning for these terms.

To Catholics: a person is "initially" justified when they are baptized as an infant
and that person (infant) is a new creature because the stain of original sin is removed and they have an indelible mark.
Yes, but the removal of the stain is kind of a side effect that occurs as part of the new creation.

The new creation is the having love poured into your heart by the Spirit (a love which moves your will to do what is good) and the renewal of your mind. This is called sanctifying grace. It sanctifies you. It makes you into a loving person, no longer with a heart of stone but a heart of flesh/compassion/love. Because this love is God's life itself, and God is love, this loving heart makes you by nature a child of God, a "partaker in God's own nature" (loving nature). Since loving deeds are automatically righteous deeds, this sanctifying grace is also called "justice." The new creation is a person who is under the indwelling influence of the Spirit and lives by the Spirit so as to be just/righteous.

Getting back to the stain of original sin. Original sin is a condition of your being. It is the human condition of not having love/justice but instead having a heart of stone. If you have a heart of stone, you are in original sin. You inherited this condition of having a heart of stone from Adam. Adam had a heart of flesh until he lost his love for God and sinned against him. "On that day you will die," he was warned, and so he did. He spiritually died when the justice/righteousness/love within him died, and was left with a heart of stone. So his heart had a "stain" in the way that a varnished table has a stain when you have gouged out some of the varnish. There is a defect. It is missing varnish, the way Adam's heart was now missing love. When the new creation/rebirth occurs by the Spirit pouring justice/love into the heart, it fills in that void. The stain is resolved. Your condition of a heart of stone is gone. Your original sin is gone.
 
Yes, but the removal of the stain is kind of a side effect that occurs as part of the new creation.
And how, pray tell, is this "stain" removed?
The new creation is the having love poured into your heart by the Spirit (a love which moves your will to do what is good) and the renewal of your mind.
That's not Biblical.

With apologies to Keith Green, the Bible doesn't describe regeneration as having "love poured into your heart", but as our being crucified with Christ and being raised to new life in Him, our old, carnal nature discarded, and a new, spiritual nature given.
This is called sanctifying grace. It sanctifies you. It makes you into a loving person, no longer with a heart of stone but a heart of flesh/compassion/love.
So, if this is true, then why do Catholics have to keep going to confession to have their sins forgiven? What about those Catholics who continue to have a heart of stone, and do not show love, such as many of your fellow Catholics here on CARM?
Because this love is God's life itself, and God is love, this loving heart makes you by nature a child of God
Sorry, but not what the Bible says. The Bible says we're made children of God by adoption, when we are born again, not when we have some mystical, esoteric experience of "God pouring love in your heart".
a "partaker in God's own nature" (loving nature). Since loving deeds are automatically righteous deeds
So, if you transgress God's laws with loving intent, that's righteous?

Uzzah acted out of what he considered to be love for God. God killed him for acting unrighteously.
The new creation is a person who is under the indwelling influence of the Spirit and lives by the Spirit so as to be just/righteous.
Ah, there it is. So, it is by the way we live that we are just and righteous?

That is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says, that we are incapable of justifying ourselves or being righteous. That is the whole point of Christ's atonement on our behalf, and our having to be born again.
Getting back to the stain of original sin. Original sin is a condition of your being. It is the human condition of not having love/justice but instead having a heart of stone.
That's not what the Bible says. Romans says that original sin is man's default state as the result of the First Adam's sin. While it may result in not having love, and having a heart of stone, that is not the definition of original sin.

Incidentally, when the Bible talks about having a heart of stone, it's not talking about an absence of love, but being in a state of enmity with God.
So his heart had a "stain" in the way that a varnished table has a stain when you have gouged out some of the varnish.
That's an interesting analogy. I happen to be a woodworker and even owned a furniture company for a couple of years. I'd be really curious to know what you think the table has to do to remove this gouge.
 
Remember, in Catholcism, you can be born again, un-born again, born again, un-born again...
I guess basically, yes, but I'll put it in Catholic language:

You can be born again (if the Spirit pours love into you), then die (if you cut yourself off from this love so that the love in you dies = definition of a mortal sin), but be (not re-born) but revivified (brought back to life) when you return to the Spirit and allow the Spirit to pour love into you afresh, and...hopefully endure to the end of your life, but if you again suffer shipwreck, hopefully be rescued again.

God can re-engraft what he has cut off.

The hope is to arrive at the end of your life love with in your heart (aka, to die in a state of sanctifying grace) (aka to come before God as a child of God) (aka to have the Spirit indwelling) (aka to be alive in Christ)
 
Yes, but the removal of the stain is kind of a side effect that occurs as part of the new creation.

The new creation is the having love poured into your heart by the Spirit (a love which moves your will to do what is good) and the renewal of your mind. This is called sanctifying grace. It sanctifies you. It makes you into a loving person, no longer with a heart of stone but a heart of flesh/compassion/love. Because this love is God's life itself, and God is love, this loving heart makes you by nature a child of God, a "partaker in God's own nature" (loving nature). Since loving deeds are automatically righteous deeds, this sanctifying grace is also called "justice." The new creation is a person who is under the indwelling influence of the Spirit and lives by the Spirit so as to be just/righteous.

Getting back to the stain of original sin. Original sin is a condition of your being. It is the human condition of not having love/justice but instead having a heart of stone. If you have a heart of stone, you are in original sin. You inherited this condition of having a heart of stone from Adam. Adam had a heart of flesh until he lost his love for God and sinned against him. "On that day you will die," he was warned, and so he did. He spiritually died when the justice/righteousness/love within him died, and was left with a heart of stone. So his heart had a "stain" in the way that a varnished table has a stain when you have gouged out some of the varnish. There is a defect. It is missing varnish, the way Adam's heart was now missing love. When the new creation/rebirth occurs by the Spirit pouring justice/love into the heart, it fills in that void. The stain is resolved. Your condition of a heart of stone is gone. Your original sin is gone.
Do you believe that happens when an infant is baptized?
Do you see becoming a new creature and being born again as the same?
 
I guess basically, yes, but I'll put it in Catholic language:

You can be born again (if the Spirit pours love into you), then die (if you cut yourself off from this love so that the love in you dies = definition of a mortal sin), but be (not re-born) but revivified (brought back to life) when you return to the Spirit and allow the Spirit to pour love into you afresh, and...hopefully endure to the end of your life, but if you again suffer shipwreck, hopefully be rescued again.
Thank you for "putting that into Catholic language".

Now, let me put it into Biblical language for you: SKUBULON!

That's not even remotely what the Bible says being born again is.

What a depressing, hopeless religion you have. It's more akin to the Greek myth of Sisyphus than anything resembling Biblical Christianity.


The hope is to arrive at the end of your life love in your heart (aka, to die in a state of sanctifying grace) (aka to come before God as a child of God) (aka to have the Spirit indwelling) (aka to be alive in Christ)
So, your hope is in the condition your actions and behavior find you in at the end of your life.

Our hope is in Christ.
 
Then why do the other RCs claim we are all sinners, Jesus had Judas, the tares passage etc that implies they have not changed and they also are trying to cover up for their leaders. RCs want a foot in both camps.
Not all Catholics are tares. Not all Catholics are in a state of Grace. There is only one camp and it's full of people, some of whom are *gasp* sinners!
 
Not all Catholics are tares. Not all Catholics are in a state of Grace. There is only one camp and it's full of people, some of whom are *gasp* sinners!
But they should not be *gasp* sexually immoral for a start because if the RCC was following scripture they would be out. 1 Cor 5:11.
 
And how, pray tell, is this "stain" removed?
By filling in what was missing: justice/righteousness.
A person who is unrighteous is missing righteousness/justice. Justice is not a part of his makeup. It's not in his nature.
With apologies to Keith Green, the Bible doesn't describe regeneration as having "love poured into your heart", but as our being crucified with Christ and being raised to new life in Him, our old, carnal nature discarded, and a new, spiritual nature given.
I don't know who Keith Green is, but the old carnal nature was our nature when it was missing righteousness/justice and the new, spiritual nature is that we now have righteousness/justice in us - being provided to us as a continuous gift of the Spirit, now indwelling, as the benefit of being a member in Christ.

This justice that we are receiving includes the gift of love as a fruit of the Spirit. With love in you, you do not harm others. Love does no harm to others, so it is the fulfillment of the law. It automatically fulfills the righteous requirements. Love makes you just.

Since God is love, it is God's nature to be loving. In being given love in our hearts, we are being made partakers/sharers in God's own nature.
So long, of course, as you live by the love that the Spirit is providing you. If you cut yourself off from this love in you, you spiritually die and are back to being unrighteous by nature.
So, if this is true, then why do Catholics have to keep going to confession to have their sins forgiven?
Confession is required after a mortal sin. A mortal sin is defined as a sin by which you completely cut yourself off from love so that it died in you. ("mortal sin destroys the charity in you"). (if you commit a sin, and after doing it you realize that you have no love in you anymore, this will tell you that it was a mortal sin (love=God's life in you)) (if love is weakened but it still there, then it wasn't mortal).

If you have no love, then you have no spiritual life from the Spirit. You cannot be reborn, but you receive new life and be revivified if you confess to God. God is merciful to forgive and give you life (and his life in you is felt as justice and love coming into you).
What about those Catholics who continue to have a heart of stone, and do not show love, such as many of your fellow Catholics here on CARM?
If they have a heart of stone, then they are spiritually dead.
That said, I doubt they have hearts of stone.
Sorry, but not what the Bible says. The Bible says we're made children of God by adoption, when we are born again, not when we have some mystical, esoteric experience of "God pouring love in your heart".
Yes, by adoption and by being born again. But being a child of God is by being made a sharer in God's own nature. God is love. God is also by nature just. That nature is love/justice.
So, if you transgress God's laws with loving intent, that's righteous?
Uzzah acted out of what he considered to be love for God. God killed him for acting unrighteously.
Well, that's been the history of the world, hasn't it? People deluded into thinking evil deeds are good, or for the greater good. The idea that the ends justify the means. The idea that their evil deeds are sanctioned by God.

It's not a matter of intellectually deciding what we think is love and doing it. We need to be actually moved by love in doing things. People who kill others "for the love of God" are clearly not loving the people they are killing. As John says, you cannot say you love God if you hate your brother.
Ah, there it is. So, it is by the way we live that we are just and righteous?
No. It is being just/righteous/loving by nature that makes you live justly and righteously.
A good tree produces good fruit.
That is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says, that we are incapable of justifying ourselves or being righteous. That is the whole point of Christ's atonement on our behalf, and our having to be born again.
Council of Trent: the epicenter of Catholic teaching on justification is this:
the sole/only reason (formal cause) that God considers us as being just/righteous...is by the justice and love that the Spirit puts in us, merited by Christ for us, and received on our becoming as a branch on the Vine of Christ
That's not what the Bible says. Romans says that original sin is man's default state as the result of the First Adam's sin. While it may result in not having love, and having a heart of stone, that is not the definition of original sin.
Not sure that's different. The "default state" is the state of having no love or justice, which is what it means to have a heart of stone.
It is not the eating of the apple that was the original sin. It was the result of cutting himself off from God in order to eat the apple. He was left with no love/justice. He died that day. Spiritually dead. And he passed this condition to all his progeny, so that we are now born with hearts of stone. And people with hearts of stone are by nature prone to turn on each other in a dog-eat-dog world committing sins. So by one man, the many were made sinners.

But by one man, Jesus, the many can now be made righteous - by Christ putting justice and love back into our hearts through the Spirit. The Second Adam.
Incidentally, when the Bible talks about having a heart of stone, it's not talking about an absence of love, but being in a state of enmity with God.
A heart of stone has no love or compassion or kindness. It is hard as a rock. Such a heart does uncaring, unkind things. These things are unrighteous, which cause God's wrath.
That's an interesting analogy. I happen to be a woodworker and even owned a furniture company for a couple of years. I'd be really curious to know what you think the table has to do to remove this gouge.
The table can do nothing.
Except receive a new coat of varnish from the woodworker.
 
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If Catholics hold to their belief in infused righteousness, then that's inconsistent with becoming a new creation. At best, it means a [Catholic] believer can do new things, but only under his own power, until he lets the boulder slip back down the hill, but he cannot be a new creation.
How so?
"Infused righteousness" means that righteousness is infused/inputted/placed into us. The power to do good. A new nature. A new heart. A renewed mind.
It is the opposite of an "imputed righteousness" which is external and outside of a person.
 
That's what I mean, that people like Liguori who rhapsodize about Mary are focusing on her feminine qualities, and my impression is that it could well be that for him, this devotion to Mary led the way to accepting the Spirit's gifts into his heart (compassion, kindness, patience, long-suffering, love). If he had had a wonderfully loving mother, he could have used his mother for that too.
Who cares what "feminine qualities" of Mary any person would waste their time "focusing" on? The thoughts should be directed to forming a fellowship with Jesus Christ- between Christ's sufferings and their sufferings, and make Christ's sufferings become their own.
 
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