Polygamy & Judging Righteously

Aaron32

Well-known member
Judge Not
Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment (JST Matt 7:2)

And Jesus said unto his disciples, Beholdest thou the scribes, and the Pharisees, and the priests, and the Levites? They teach in their synagogues, but do not observe the law, nor the commandments; and all have gone out of the way, and are under sin (JST Matt 7:6)

While the JST may be accused of plagerism, the principle isn't wrong or unBiblical:

Romans 3
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Romans 3:9-11)

If Paul is correct, that no one understands, how can we claim righteous judgment of others?

The Golden Rule
Jesus affirms that we are evil, and tells us the spirit of the law. Good fruit is the golden rule.
Matt 7:
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

So, let's sum up Jesus teachings regarding our behavior:
1) Don't judge. 2)Keep the golden rule.

Since this is the Mormonism, here's some perspective from the Book of Mormon:
16...I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. (Moroni 7)

This affirms Peters words - speaking of the Gentiles:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

People may not have the same understanding of God that you do, but if they fear God, and do good works, it's not God that's judging them. God only judges against our knowledge and the dictates of our conscience.

Romans 2:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Spiritual Blindness
You may believe someone is spiritually blind. What does Jesus say to do?
Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Jesus was perfectly comfortable to let the blind go, having perfect trust in His Father to heal their blindness, if it be His will.

You may believe someone is following a false Christ, or using His name in vain. How did Jesus respond?
Mark 9
38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Now, does that mean Jesus said these people were "true" Christians? Nope.
Matt 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This leads us to an important point to what fruit we are bearing when we pronounce judgement:
John 10
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

We are either following Jesus, and doing what he says, or we're not.

Part 2: False prophets
Just because we can't judge others, we can choose who we follow. Jesus gives us the criteria:
Matt 7:
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

We may be tempted to impose our own morality and our own set of values as "good fruit". But that's not what Jesus is saying here.
Those who keep Jesus words, and abide in Him, bring forth good fruits. (John 15:3-4) Those who love God, and love others as themselves are keeping the Law and the prophets. (Matt 22:38-40)
Obeying God sometimes supercedes obedience to the literal meaning of The Law. For example, even though the Ten Commandments states "Thou shall not kill", Joshua was not a false prophet for ordering the death of Canaanites.

Joseph Smith & Polygamy
While I personally have issues with polygamy, Joseph Smith said he was commanded by God to practice it. It's a subjective/unverifiable claim. Yet, to be congruent with Biblical teachings - it's not up to us to judge. Polygamy came as a shock to the Saints. Prior to that, Joseph Smith was teaching to people to come to Christ. Therefore, maintaining a biblical standard, polygamy cannot be used as evidence of Joseph Smith being a false prophet.

True to Jesus word, the blind will fall into a ditch, and that's exactly the situation the decision was forced upon the Church in continuing polygamy or not, as described in the Manifesto. The Church purged themselves of the practice, and has moved forward. Therefore, if it was true doctrine or not, it's inconsequential to present day Mormons.
 
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Magdalena

Well-known member
Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment (JST Matt 7:2)

And Jesus said unto his disciples, Beholdest thou the scribes, and the Pharisees, and the priests, and the Levites? They teach in their synagogues, but do not observe the law, nor the commandments; and all have gone out of the way, and are under sin (JST Matt 7:6)

Romans 3
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Romans 3:9-11)

Paul is correct, that no one understands, how can we claim righteous judgment?

Jesus affirms that we are evil, and tells us the spirit of the law. Good fruit is the golden rule.
Matt 7:
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

So, let's sum up Jesus teachings regarding our behavior:
1)Dont judge. 2)Keep the golden rule.

Since this is the Mormonism, here's some perspective from the Book of Mormon:
16...I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. (Moroni 7)

This affirms Peters words - speaking of the Gentiles:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

People may not have the same understanding of God that you do, but if they fear God, and do good works, it's not God that's judging them. God only judges against our knowledge and the dictates of our conscience.

Romans 2:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You may believe someone is spiritually blind. What does Jesus say to do?
Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Jesus was perfectly comfortable to let the blind go, having perfect trust in His Father to heal their blindness, if it be His will.

You may believe someone is following a false Christ, or using His name in vain. How did Jesus respond?
Mark 9
38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Does that mean Jesus said they were "true" Christians? Nope.
Matt 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 10
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

We are either following Jesus, and doing what he says, or we're not.

Part 2: False prophets
Just because we can't judge others, we can choose who we follow. Jesus gives us the criteria:
Matt 7:
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

We may be tempted to impose our own morality and our own set of values as "good fruit". But that's not what Jesus is saying here.
Those who keep Jesus words, and abide in Him, bring forth good fruits. (John 15:3-4) Those who love God, and love others as themselves are keeping the Law and the prophets. (Matt 22:38-40)
Obeying God sometimes supercedes obedience the literal meaning of The Law. For example, even though the Ten Commandments states "Thou shall not kill", Joshua was not a false prophet for ordering the death of Canaanites.

Joseph Smith & Polygamy
While I personally have issues with polygamy, Joseph Smith said he was commanded by God to practice it. It's a subjective/unverifiable claim. To be congruent with Biblical teachings - it's not up to us to judge. Therefore, maintaining a biblical standard, polygamy cannot be used as evidence of Joseph Smith being a false prophet.

True to Jesus word, the blind will fall into a ditch, and that's exactly the situation the decision was forced upon the Church in continuing polygamy or not, as described in the Manifesto. The Church purged themselves of the practice, and has moved forward. Therefore, if it was true doctrine or not, it's inconsequential to present day Mormons.
Jesus told us to judge whether a man is a true prophet or not. He told us how. And He told us not to follow false prophets.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Thank you for recapping my post.
“While I personally have issues with polygamy, Joseph Smith said he was commanded by God to practice it. It's a subjective/unverifiable claim. Yet, to be congruent with Biblical teachings - it's not up to us to judge. Polygamy came as a shock to the Saints. Prior to that, Joseph Smith was teaching to people to come to Christ. Therefore, maintaining a biblical standard, polygamy cannot be used as evidence of Joseph Smith being a false prophet.

“True to Jesus word, the blind will fall into a ditch, and that's exactly the situation the decision was forced upon the Church in continuing polygamy or not, as described in the Manifesto. The Church purged themselves of the practice, and has moved forward. Therefore, if it was true doctrine or not, it's inconsequential to present day Mormons.”

You said “it’s not up to us to judge.”

”Maintaining a biblical standard,” Christ told us to judge false prophets. It doesn’t matter what else Smith taught. Christ said false prophets would come in sheep’s clothing. Smith was teaching about Christ while teaching false doctrine and marrying a lot of women, including other men’s wives and little girls. Little girls, Aaron! And he said God told him to.

You say it’s inconsequential now, whether it was true or not. That’s not how it works. Mormonism was founded on false doctrine taught by false prophets. That makes it false. It never came from Christ.
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
“While I personally have issues with polygamy, Joseph Smith said he was commanded by God to practice it. It's a subjective/unverifiable claim. Yet, to be congruent with Biblical teachings - it's not up to us to judge. Polygamy came as a shock to the Saints. Prior to that, Joseph Smith was teaching to people to come to Christ. Therefore, maintaining a biblical standard, polygamy cannot be used as evidence of Joseph Smith being a false prophet.

“True to Jesus word, the blind will fall into a ditch, and that's exactly the situation the decision was forced upon the Church in continuing polygamy or not, as described in the Manifesto. The Church purged themselves of the practice, and has moved forward. Therefore, if it was true doctrine or not, it's inconsequential to present day Mormons.”

You said “it’s not up to us to judge.”
All true.
”Maintaining a biblical standard,” Christ told us to judge false prophets. It doesn’t matter what else he taught. Christ said false prophets would come in sheep’s clothing. Smith was teaching about Christ while teaching false doctrine and marrying a lot of women, including other men’s wives and little girls. Little girls, Aaron! And he said God told him to.
Per your own words, I'm not the polygamy police. It's between them and God. Remember?
You say it’s inconsequential now, whether it was true or not.
Yes. I, and all the other Mormons I know, don't have to make that choice.

That’s not how it works. Mormonism was founded on false doctrine taught by false prophets. That makes it false. It never came from Christ.
No, it wasn't founded on false doctrine. It was founded on the Book of Mormon. Else the Nauvoo Expositor would have nothing to expose. Polygamy wasn't openly taught until they came to Utah. The RLDS calls the doctrine a fabrication. Whatever polygamy was, it didn't have to do with the bulk of the Saints. The practice isn't being followed today.
Must I now create a new post on forgiveness?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
All true.

Per your own words, I'm not the polygamy police. It's between them and God. Remember?

Yes. I, and all the other Mormons I know, don't have to make that choice.


No, it wasn't founded on false doctrine. It was founded on the Book of Mormon. Else the Nauvoo Expositor would have nothing to expose. Polygamy wasn't openly taught until they came to Utah. The RLDS calls the doctrine a fabrication. Whatever polygamy was, it didn't have to do with the bulk of the Saints. The practice isn't being followed today.
Must I now create a new post on forgiveness?
Polygamy isn’t the issue. False doctrine is. That wasn’t the only false doctrine taught in mormonism as coming from God.

The question of whether Smith was a true prophet or not is the bottom line of mormonism. His false doctrines are the fruits of a false prophet that Christ talked about.

“Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.” — Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954-1956, Doctrines of Salvation 1:188
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Polygamy isn’t the issue. False doctrine is. That wasn’t the only false doctrine taught in mormonism as coming from God.

The question of whether Smith was a true prophet or not is the bottom line of mormonism. His false doctrines are the fruits of a false prophet that Christ talked about.

“Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.” — Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954-1956, Doctrines of Salvation 1:188
I vote that Smith was "one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen."
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Polygamy isn’t the issue. False doctrine is. That wasn’t the only false doctrine taught in mormonism as coming from God.
And yet, polygamy is used as evidence of that false doctrine, but now you say it's a non-issue? Ok. As you say. I'd be happy to drop the subject.
The question of whether Smith was a true prophet or not is the bottom line of mormonism. His false doctrines are the fruits of a false prophet that Christ talked about.
The fruits of a false prophet/teacher Christ referred to is hypocrisy. It was the Pharisees and scribes that relied on the written word alone that got it wrong. The had no idea who God was, and couldn't recognize the Messiah standing right in from of them.
“Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.” — Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954-1956, Doctrines of Salvation 1:188
True
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
And yet, polygamy is used as evidence of that false doctrine, but now you say it's a non-issue? Ok. As you say. I'd be happy to drop the subject.

The fruits of a false prophet/teacher Christ referred to is hypocrisy. It was the Pharisees and scribes that relied on the written word alone that got it wrong. The had no idea who God was, and couldn't recognize the Messiah standing right in from of them.

True
I didn’t say polygamy was a non-issue. It’s a huge one. But the bottom line deal breaker of mormonism is that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

Christ said if someone gives a prophecy and it doesn’t come to pass that person is a false prophet. Smith’s prophecies didn’t come true. False prophet.

Christ said someone who teaches false doctrine is a false prophet. In comes polygamy, God not always being God, etc. False prophet.

Mormonism was not built on the rock Christ spoke of. It was built on the sand of false prophets.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
I didn’t say polygamy was a non-issue. It’s a huge one. But the bottom line deal breaker of mormonism is that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
That's circular reasoning.
Christ said if someone gives a prophecy and it doesn’t come to pass that person is a false prophet. Smith’s prophecies didn’t come true. False prophet.
Did Christ say that? I thought that was in the Old Testament.
Christ said someone who teaches false doctrine is a false prophet.
And yet, Christ looked at an individual's behavior to determine the fruits, not the teachings.
InIn comes polygamy, God not always being God, etc. False prophet.
Well, the terms "God" and even "Father" have different meanings in the context of scripture.
Mormonism was not built on the rock Christ spoke of. It was built on the sand of false prophets.
An analogy completely misapplied.
Those who hear and do Christ's teachings are built on a rock, those who hear only are built on sand.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
That's circular reasoning.

Did Christ say that? I thought that was in the Old Testament.

And yet, Christ looked at an individual's behavior to determine the fruits, not the teachings.

Well, the terms "God" and even "Father" have different meanings in the context of scripture.

An analogy completely misapplied.
Those who hear and do Christ's teachings are built on a rock, those who hear only are built on sand.
It’s not circular reasoning. It’s point blank bottom line. Even your own leaders have said the validity of the mormon church rests on whether Smith was really a prophet speaking for God.

Is everything in the Bible His word?

Please explain how you think Christ didn’t look at the teachings to determine fruits. A prophet‘s fruits are his prophecies, teachings as well as his actions.

Now that’s just a pitiful old Mormon excuse... God and Father having different meanings. You know Joseph Smith was talking about God the Father when he said God hadn’t always been God. He differentiated “the son” in his sermon.

Christ was talking about His church being built on rock or sand. His gospel being the rock. Not the shifting sand of false doctrines and false prophets. Mormonism teaches that the rock means revelation or prophecy. And they have shifted that sand a lot, changing doctrines, dueling prophets, denying what was taught, etc.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Proverbs 3:5 5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding
I do trust in the LORD, which is why I know Smith was a fraud and false prophet because of the bad fruit he bore, that Jesus our Lord warned us about--false prophesies, hypocrisy, marrying multiple woman, 1 or 2 as young as 14, and even other men's wives! I also know he was a false prophet because he taught contrary to Scripture. God's word exhorts us to "test the spirits" and we do that as the Bereans did--using the actual word of God to do so.

Smith bore very bad fruit. He taught lies as doctrines. Who is the father of lies, Aaron?
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
It’s not circular reasoning. It’s point blank bottom line.
YOU believe Joseph Smith is false prophet. That's not a universally accepted truth. How is it that, just for the sake of discussion, you can't even grant people have a different perspective and their views are valid.
Even your own leaders have said the validity of the mormon church rests on whether Smith was really a prophet speaking for God.
Yes. This is true.

Is everything in the Bible His word?
Yes, as far as it's translated and interpreted correctly.
Please explain how you think Christ didn’t look at the teachings to determine fruits. A prophet‘s fruits are his prophecies, teachings as well as his actions.
Well, I've already given my explanation of how false prophets/teachers are identified according to Jesus' words. I don't see evidence to the contrary.
I do see when others taught contrary to Jesus he said:
13 ...Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch

Now that’s just a pitiful old Mormon excuse... God and Father having different meanings. You know Joseph Smith was talking about God the Father when he said God hadn’t always been God. He differentiated “the son” in his sermon.
Yes. I acknowledge that. I also acknowledge JS theology was different from yours. How can God be a literal Father while at the same time claim all spirits already existed. Terminology and meaning are vital to understand.
Christ was talking about His church being built on rock or sand. His gospel being the rock. Not the shifting sand of false doctrines and false prophets.
Mormonism teaches that the rock means revelation or prophecy. And they have shifted that sand a lot, changing doctrines, dueling prophets, denying what was taught, etc.
Just revelation, not prophecy.
The changing doctrines and dueling prophets is your stumbling block, not mine.
We don't need to know all the mysteries of eternity for salvation - which make 90% of the strawman arguments presented to us.
On the other hand, our critics make all sorts of claims, don't provide evidence, and then backtrack to justify their position.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
YOU believe Joseph Smith is false prophet. That's not a universally accepted truth. How is it that, just for the sake of discussion, you can't even grant people have a different perspective and their views are valid.

Charles Manson claimed to be Christ.
Was HIS view "valid"?

The FLDS believe Warren Jeffs is a "prophet".
Is THEIR view "valid"?

The Flat-Earthers believe the Earth is flat.
Is THEIR view "valid"?

We can recognize that certain claims are false, even though there are people who believe them.

On the other hand, our critics make all sorts of claims, don't provide evidence, and then backtrack to justify their position.

You keep making this about "the critics", rather than about Mormonism.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
LoL! So if you see God to tell you which church to join, and he says "None of them." What would you do?

God didn't tell me that, and God didn't tell Joseph that, either.

God has already told us which church to join.
The message is in the BIBLE.
And you need to trust God's word, the Bible, instead of trusting those who tell you to doubt God's word, the Bible, like Joseph Smith did.
 
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