Polygamy & Judging Righteously

Magdalena

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
This is an open door that I refuse to go through, but again, your opinion on the subject is irrelevant. I just took a stab on the internet for the age when the brain is fully developed and came up with a consensus that it isn't fully developed until the age of 25 which means that almost all first marriages are made by people without fully developed brains not that it makes any difference.
The male brain is even slower to develop, which explains a lot of things.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
God didn't tell me that, and God didn't tell Joseph that, either.

God has already told us which church to join.
The message is in the BIBLE.
And you need to trust God's word, the Bible, instead of trusting those who tell you to doubt God's word, the Bible, like Joseph Smith did.
I don't think there is any church that is perfectly Biblical. I have yet to find one.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
I don't think there is any church that is perfectly Biblical. I have yet to find one.
You won't. There wasn't a perfect biblical church during the time of the apostles and Paul either. Look at the New Testament. The churches were not, perfect. All had issues. Look at the Book of Revelation. See which churches Jesus commended and why and which he didn't. You will also see churches that had both commendations as well as issues to correct.

Just because a church isn't 100% biblical is no reason to reject it. There are certain core beliefs all genuine Christian churches must believe. There are also practices where churches deviate. Churches will be in unity but unity doesn't mean uniformity. That is what you see in the early church, especially the writings of the apostles, Paul and practice in very early church history. Uniformity came later and it wasn't a good thing. Unity is always good.

The Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International of the 70s and early 80 exemplified this. Folks from varying Christian background and practices came to meetings unified under the Lordship of Jesus and salvation by grace through faith. Members expressed their faith differently than their neighbor but the common denominator was love for the Lord Jesus being a member of the ecclesia (church) through faith. Unity existed, but there was no uniformity of practice.
 
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Fenuay

Well-known member
You won't. There wasn't a perfect biblical church during the time of the apostles and Paul either. Look at the New Testament. The churches were not, perfect. All had issues. Look at the Book of Revelation. See which churches Jesus commended and why and which he didn't. You will also see churches that had both commendations as well as issues to correct.

Just because a church isn't 100% biblical is no reason to reject it. There are certain core beliefs all genuine Christian churches must believe. There are also practices where churches deviate. Churches will be in unity but unity doesn't mean uniformity. That is what you see in the early church, especially the writings of the apostles, Paul and practice in very early church history. Uniformity came later and it wasn't a good thing. Unity is always good.

The Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International of the 70s and early 80 exemplified this. Folks from varying Christian background and practices came to meetings unified under the Lordship of Jesus and salvation by grace through faith. Members expressed their faith differently than their neighbor but the common denominator was love for the Lord Jesus being a member of the ecclesia (church) through faith. Unity existed, but there was no uniformity of practice.
I wish it were easier to find a church I was comfortable with. But I was also wondering which church Theo said the Bible told us to join. Does he just mean the church as in the body of believers?
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
You won't. There wasn't a perfect biblical church during the time of the apostles and Paul either. Look at the New Testament.

I wish it were easier to find a church I was comfortable with. But I was also wondering which church Theo said the Bible told us to join. Does he just mean the church as in the body of believers?
I would worry less about you being "comfortable" and concentrate more on where the Holy Spirit wants you to go. Case in point: my wife and I church shopped five different Christian bodies when we moved to Coeur d' Alene from Olympia. We found one that absolutely checked all of our boxes. It was comfortable and what we wanted. However, God told us that wasn't where he wanted us. Instead he brought us to a "mega" church of about 6,000 that focused on discipleship training and relational environments in small life groups where real life happens. we are group leaders and have forged solid relationships. we don't like everything the church believes, but they are non-essentials.

The main focus is winning the world to Jesus one person at a time and growing in relational environments. We get the big body experience Thursdays and Sundays and the small group relationships on whatever day of the week we meet. It is all about where God wants you. Not where you want to be or what makes you comfortable. The Holy Spirit will direct your path.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I wish it were easier to find a church I was comfortable with. But I was also wondering which church Theo said the Bible told us to join. Does he just mean the church as in the body of believers?
That's probably what he meant, but to me, that's a church where you can believe anything you want.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
“Given to”... same as assigned. Herded around between owners. Stand in line, and when it’s your turn, you’re given to some man to have spirit babies forever and ever. It’s a glorious prospect mormon women have to look forward to. Or else you can become an eternal servant to those who are far more worthy because they’re married. That is what Joseph Smith said.
I think what you and @brotherofJared are hitting on is the plausible platonic nature of these relationships. Moreover, marriage in the temple requires "our own free will and choice", so I don't think women will be esteemed as cattle. There are three degrees of celestial glory. Yet, celestial glory requires connection to the priesthood (D&C 84:33), so I think it's possible that there's a version of marriage we're not familiar with while in mortality.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
It is all about where God wants you. Not where you want to be or what makes you comfortable. The Holy Spirit will direct your path.
I find this statement as somewhat ironic since the Holy Ghost is the "Comforter". 😉 I agree with the sentiment, though: comply to God's will, and not your own. I think the heart of the issue is understanding God's will - and as we've discussed before, is it "Sola Scriptura" which wasn't invented until the reformation, or it also include the Holy Ghost (John 14:26), the Church (Eph 4:11-13)?
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
I find this statement as somewhat ironic since the Holy Ghost is the "Comforter". 😉 I agree with the sentiment, though: comply to God's will, and not your own. I think the heart of the issue is understanding God's will - and as we've discussed before, is it "Sola Scriptura" which wasn't invented until the reformation, or it also include the Holy Ghost (John 14:26), the Church (Eph 4:11-13)?
Sola Scriptura may have been defined in the reformation but was in fact used by Jesus and Paul. Jesus used it when confronting Satan in the desert and Paul used it in commending the Bereans. The Holy Spirit (paracletus in the Greek) is defined as the Comforter and Advocate and in the John 14 passage a teacher. He is all of those. Nothing ironic about it.


But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(John 14:26 NKJV)

Eph 4:11-15
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
(Ephesians 4:11-14 NKJV)

They all work in unity. Scripture and its inerrancy is the standard. The Holy Spirit will teach individually and collectively through the church (body of Christ). Unity is not uniformity as Paul's New Testament letters show in writing to the churches and as Jesus Himself said in his messages to the seven churches of Revelation.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Sola Scriptura may have been defined in the reformation but was in fact used by Jesus and Paul. Jesus used it when confronting Satan in the desert and Paul used it in commending the Bereans. The Holy Spirit (paracletus in the Greek) is defined as the Comforter and Advocate and in the John 14 passage a teacher. He is all of those. Nothing ironic about it.
It's not ironic that you should not go where your Comfortable, even though the Holy Ghost is a Comforter?
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(John 14:26 NKJV)
And that introduces another issue of translation. The KJV says:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

A helper isn't a comforter. Making that change, opens the door to say "I can't trust myself". I need a bible scholar to tell me what to do and believe. Sorry, that sounds too much like a business model to me.
Eph 4:11-15
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
(Ephesians 4:11-14 NKJV)

They all work in unity. Scripture and its inerrancy is the standard. The Holy Spirit will teach individually and collectively through the church (body of Christ). Unity is not uniformity as Paul's New Testament letters show in writing to the churches and as Jesus Himself said in his messages to the seven churches of Revelation.
If scripture was inerrant we wouldnt have a change in terms shown in the scripture above. So IMO "Sola Scriptura" falls short. But generally, I agree with you. They all work in unity. The pattern throughout history is revelation by authority comes before scripture.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I would worry less about you being "comfortable" and concentrate more on where the Holy Spirit wants you to go. Case in point: my wife and I church shopped five different Christian bodies when we moved to Coeur d' Alene from Olympia. We found one that absolutely checked all of our boxes. It was comfortable and what we wanted. However, God told us that wasn't where he wanted us. Instead he brought us to a "mega" church of about 6,000 that focused on discipleship training and relational environments in small life groups where real life happens. we are group leaders and have forged solid relationships. we don't like everything the church believes, but they are non-essentials.

The main focus is winning the world to Jesus one person at a time and growing in relational environments. We get the big body experience Thursdays and Sundays and the small group relationships on whatever day of the week we meet. It is all about where God wants you. Not where you want to be or what makes you comfortable. The Holy Spirit will direct your path.
I don't want to attend a Church that I feel teaches untrue doctrine. I don't want a Church that shows no sense of modesty which is quite many Churches. I also want a Church that follows a weekly sacrament and baptism by immersion. Not many options there. And I'm not charismatic or contemporary as I find that to be a twisting of the sacredness of worship. So perhaps I still hold on to how I was raised with a traditional service that had sacrament every Sunday. Baptism by immersion isn't widely practiced so that narrows it as well. And these things are not my opinion but rather the promptings of the Holy Spirit. And watching these forums for the last 12 years I noticed that a lot of Evangelicals are not kind and Christ like in the way they treat other denominations. That is one thing I respect about Mormons and JWs. They share their beliefs with kindness and love. I think sometimes that outsiders looking in here might actually be swayed to Mormonism by watching some of the discussions. Fortunately since I've returned recently some of the more hateful "Christians" are gone. I've also noticed that many of the Mormons are gone. There was one individual who was critical of both the LDS and the Christians here. Thankfully said individual is gone. But it's sad so many are gone. It's sad because I think that some of the discussions are very beneficial but without many Mormons it's really rather one sided.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I think what you and @brotherofJared are hitting on is the plausible platonic nature of these relationships. Moreover, marriage in the temple requires "our own free will and choice", so I don't think women will be esteemed as cattle. There are three degrees of celestial glory. Yet, celestial glory requires connection to the priesthood (D&C 84:33), so I think it's possible that there's a version of marriage we're not familiar with while in mortality.
Well that’s a nice clean little box you’re able to put all the nasty realities of Mormon doctrine and practices in, and put up on your shelf.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I don't want to attend a Church that I feel teaches untrue doctrine. I don't want a Church that shows no sense of modesty which is quite many Churches. I also want a Church that follows a weekly sacrament and baptism by immersion. Not many options there. And I'm not charismatic or contemporary as I find that to be a twisting of the sacredness of worship. So perhaps I still hold on to how I was raised with a traditional service that had sacrament every Sunday. Baptism by immersion isn't widely practiced so that narrows it as well. And these things are not my opinion but rather the promptings of the Holy Spirit. And watching these forums for the last 12 years I noticed that a lot of Evangelicals are not kind and Christ like in the way they treat other denominations. That is one thing I respect about Mormons and JWs. They share their beliefs with kindness and love. I think sometimes that outsiders looking in here might actually be swayed to Mormonism by watching some of the discussions. Fortunately since I've returned recently some of the more hateful "Christians" are gone. I've also noticed that many of the Mormons are gone. There was one individual who was critical of both the LDS and the Christians here. Thankfully said individual is gone. But it's sad so many are gone. It's sad because I think that some of the discussions are very beneficial but without many Mormons it's really rather one sided.
I'd like to point out that you can't judge the teachings by the way individuals act while trying to defend their beliefs. I say this because there are no perfect people and everyone makes mistakes in their conduct. I wish you well in finding a church that meets your needs.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I'd like to point out that you can't judge the teachings by the way individuals act while trying to defend their beliefs. I say this because there are no perfect people and everyone makes mistakes in their conduct. I wish you well in finding a church that meets your needs.
I'm not judging the church by the people but if the majority of a churches people bear rotten fruit I'm gonna have to say that's not the one for me.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Well that’s a nice clean little box you’re able to put all the nasty realities of Mormon doctrine and practices in, and put up on your shelf.
I'm not sure what's been proven as "reality" yet, but until then..yep, it's up to God and my-shelf. 😄
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
I'm not judging the church by the people but if the majority of a churches people bear rotten fruit I'm gonna have to say that's not the one for me.
Well, I would say that when you find that perfect church.... don't join. You will make it imperfect. Every church has flaws because people are flawed. There are things I wish my church did, but doesn't. However, those things aren't central to the basic Gospel message. People who come to a church service are all flawed. All sinners. All in need of redemption. You might have a number of unsaved folks in the churches you visit. You might have some believers there, too, in various stages of their walk and they will mess up.

It is not your job to judge how people are or are not walking with God. Folks are all at different stages of spiritual sanctification. It is your job to walk with God daily and let the Holy Spirit show you where you need to change. If you read the New Testament, you will see the Corinthian church was a hot mess. There was some "bad fruit" amongst the believers. Yet God didn't give up on them, nor did the apostle Paul. Read the two books of Corinthians and see what Paul was saying to that church. Then read Revelation chapters two and three and see what Jesus had to say about the seven churches. They were all flawed. Two received no rebuke, however. All others did, even Ephesus.

I would suggest you get involved in a church, build relationships and start concentrating on how God wants you to develop and change and perhaps become an instrument of change in that particular body if that is what He has for you. Christianity is actually a team sport. No lone rangers. That is why relationships in the body of Christ are so important.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
Well, I would say that when you find that perfect church.... don't join. You will make it imperfect. Every church has flaws because people are flawed. There are things I wish my church did, but doesn't. However, those things aren't central to the basic Gospel message. People who come to a church service are all flawed. All sinners. All in need of redemption. You might have a number of unsaved folks in the churches you visit. You might have some believers there, too, in various stages of their walk and they will mess up.

It is not your job to judge how people are or are not walking with God. Folks are all at different stages of spiritual sanctification. It is your job to walk with God daily and let the Holy Spirit show you where you need to change. If you read the New Testament, you will see the Corinthian church was a hot mess. There was some "bad fruit" amongst the believers. Yet God didn't give up on them, nor did the apostle Paul. Read the two books of Corinthians and see what Paul was saying to that church. Then read Revelation chapters two and three and see what Jesus had to say about the seven churches. They were all flawed. Two received no rebuke, however. All others did, even Ephesus.

I would suggest you get involved in a church, build relationships and start concentrating on how God wants you to develop and change and perhaps become an instrument of change in that particular body if that is what He has for you. Christianity is actually a team sport. No lone rangers. That is why relationships in the body of Christ are so important.
So which Church should I start attending? Moreover I am not judging the people so much as the doctrine. Unless you are referring to charismatic or evangelical. Then I'm sorry but I'm not going to follow rotten fruit.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I'd say my definition of rotten fruit is the same as anyone else's. Rude, arrogant, hateful, judgemental people who do not behave in a Christ like manner. Those who are truly part of the body of Christ have good fruits. They behave with love, tolerance, kindness and righteous judgement with love. As far as what is left... Not much, and that makes the search more difficult. But that doesn't indicate that one should join a church of rotten fruit. But you still didn't answer.. which church do you recommend I join? Is there one that you believe is good and teaches Biblical truth?

And if we are not supposed to judge where others are in their walk how do we know who is a good pastor and who is a false prophet? How do we know what the flock is in need of if we do not "judge". Righteous judgement is supposed to keep us from following lies and all manner of false doctrine. Without it we have no guide as to how to find other Christians. Which then, without judgement, would mean these forums would be non existent.
 
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