Polygamy & Judging Righteously

[brotherofJared]

“Given to”... same as assigned.

I hope you realize that you are quoting yourself. Do you think that when a bride's father "gives" his daughter away, that he assigned her to her husband?

Personally, I believe that the women give themselves to their husband and I believe that once they give themselves to him, they can't be any other man's wife. That would be adultery. I know you have your own view and I'm sure it is obtained through the lens of your animus. I don't know why you think that anything is forced in heaven or that we would teach that the woman or man doesn't have any choice in the matter. I know that plays well into your animus, but just because you think it works that way doesn't make it so

It’s a glorious prospect mormon women have to look forward to.

It doesn't have to be. It just makes sense to me that if you want to have children, you would do whatever is necessary to have children. If you don't, then you won't. The choice is the woman's. It's up to her.

Or else you can become an eternal servant to those who are far more worthy because they’re married.

I know that's what Joseph said. But do you know what "servants" do in heaven? I know you think you do, but the fact is, they may be able to do everything that married people can do except one thing. Can you guess what that is? If you're single, you can't have children. I don't really think being a servant is that bad if you can say a thing and it is so. I'm not sure why it would be so hard for the married couples to say their own things and make them so.

So, do you think the 4 beasts at the throne of God, were servants? Was Michael, the Archangel a servant? are the Seraphim servants? There are beings in heaven that are obviously servants but I don't see their jobs as being menial. It's not like they were scrubbing the toilets or waving feathered fans over God. But in our critics' theology, the servants to hang around singing praises for eternity, so I'm not sure that your idea is any better than what you think a servant in our theology might be doing. I'm pretty sure your choir members aren't going to be able to speak things into existence, whereas, IMO, our servants will be able to.
.

 

[Theo1689]

Personally, I believe that the women give themselves to their husband and I believe that once they give themselves to him, they can't be any other man's wife. That would be adultery. I know you have your own view and I'm sure it is obtained through the lens of your animus. I don't know why you think that anything is forced in heaven or that we would teach that the woman or man doesn't have any choice in the matter. I know that plays well into your animus, but just because you think it works that way doesn't make it so

You really like using that word, don't you?
Unfortunately for you, Magdalena hasn't show any "animus".

So maybe you should stop trying to invent a false narrative.

 

[Magdalena]

I hope you realize that you are quoting yourself. Do you think that when a bride's father "gives" his daughter away, that he assigned her to her husband?

In arranged marriages, that’s exactly what happens.

Personally, I believe that the women give themselves to their husband and I believe that once they give themselves to him, they can't be any other man's wife. That would be adultery.

When you don’t have a choice of who you marry, that’s either an arranged marriage or slavery.

I know you have your own view and I'm sure it is obtained through the lens of your animus.

There is no animus there. Just the lense of reality. You don’t like what the Mormon church teaches either. But you won’t admit it.

I don't know why you think that anything is forced in heaven or that we would teach that the woman or man doesn't have any choice in the matter. I know that plays well into your animus, but just because you think it works that way doesn't make it so

No animus involved. I don’t believe anyone is forced in heaven. That’s mormonism’s belief.

It doesn't have to be. It just makes sense to me that if you want to have children, you would do whatever is necessary to have children. If you don't, then you won't. The choice is the woman's. It's up to her.

What choice? If you want to have children, agree to an arranged marriage? And if you don’t agree, you’ll be an eternal servant to the married people?

I know that's what Joseph said. But do you know what "servants" do in heaven? I know you think you do, but the fact is, they may be able to do everything that married people can do except one thing. Can you guess what that is? If you're single, you can't have children. I don't really think being a servant is that bad if you can say a thing and it is so. I'm not sure why it would be so hard for the married couples to say their own things and make them so.

So, do you think the 4 beasts at the throne of God, were servants? Was Michael, the Archangel a servant? are the Seraphim servants? There are beings in heaven that are obviously servants but I don't see their jobs as being menial. It's not like they were scrubbing the toilets or waving feathered fans over God. But in our critics' theology, the servants to hang around singing praises for eternity, so I'm not sure that your idea is any better than what you think a servant in our theology might be doing. I'm pretty sure your choir members aren't going to be able to speak things into existence, whereas, IMO, our servants will be able to.
.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. That’s just a bunch of your own blather.

 

[brotherofJared]

In arranged marriages, that’s exactly what happens.

Now you've moved to arranged marriages. So what if that's the way it used to be done. Where did you ever get the idea that marriages were ever arranged under Jesus Christ or that we ever taught that they were arranged in a perfect order? I've explained here numerous times that it's up to the woman. If she doesn't want to be married, she doesn't have to be. The same is true of men.

When you don’t have a choice of who you marry,

Again, that's your view, it is not the church's view.

There is no animus there.

It is dripping with animus.

Just the lense of reality.

Your reality, maybe, but that's your view through very colored lens.

You don’t like what the Mormon church teaches either. But you won’t admit it.

Nope. I don't like what you think the church teaches and I explain what it actually does teach. I understand you can't see that. There's nothing I can do about the way you see things, but at least there's an argument to refute your version of reality.

What choice? If you want to have children, agree to an arranged marriage?

The choice is to have children or not. Your idea that there will be ab arranged marriage is purely in your imagination, hence, your version of reality. It doesn't actually exist.

That’s mormonism’s belief.

That's what you think, it is not Mormonism's belief. There may be a lot of Mormons who will be surprised that many of their beliefs simply aren't what they imagined they would be. But, at least they will see it to be surprised. Our critics, on the other hand, may never see it. I'm sure that what they do see will conform to their expectations.

And if you don’t agree, you’ll be an eternal servant to the married people?

I don't see that as a problem. If you don't want to have children, don't. As I said before, we have no idea what a servant does. There's not much that gods can't do for themselves, so, what is there for a servant to do?

You have no idea what you’re talking about. That’s just a bunch of your own blather.

And you have no idea what you're talking about. Most of what you post is just a bunch of your own blather. See how that works?

 

[Magdalena]

Now you've moved to arranged marriages. So what if that's the way it used to be done. Where did you ever get the idea that marriages were ever arranged under Jesus Christ or that we ever taught that they were arranged in a perfect order? I've explained here numerous times that it's up to the woman. If she doesn't want to be married, she doesn't have to be. The same is true of men.

Again, that's your view, it is not the church's view.

It is dripping with animus.

Your reality, maybe, but that's your view through very colored lens.

Nope. I don't like what you think the church teaches and I explain what it actually does teach. I understand you can't see that. There's nothing I can do about the way you see things, but at least there's an argument to refute your version of reality.

The choice is to have children or not. Your idea that there will be ab arranged marriage is purely in your imagination, hence, your version of reality. It doesn't actually exist.

That's what you think, it is not Mormonism's belief. There may be a lot of Mormons who will be surprised that many of their beliefs simply aren't what they imagined they would be. But, at least they will see it to be surprised. Our critics, on the other hand, may never see it. I'm sure that what they do see will conform to their expectations.

I don't see that as a problem. If you don't want to have children, don't. As I said before, we have no idea what a servant does. There's not much that gods can't do for themselves, so, what is there for a servant to do?

And you have no idea what you're talking about. Most of what you post is just a bunch of your own blather. See how that works?

You’re trying to change mormonism. I think you’re even trying to get mormons to believe it’s something different than what it really is. Which Mormon break off do you belong to? Or are you trying to start your own? The things you think you’re “teaching” here are definitely NOT mormonism.

 

[organgrinder]

This is what BOJ posted on eternal marriage in the Aarom32ism thread and my response which he didn't dee (I am on ignore evidently). How do you all respond to this in what the Biblical scriptures say?

brotherofJared said:
Correct. They tend to lead our critics to wrong conclusions that they insist that we believe. But Joseph Smith didn't invent polygamy and it is necessary so long as there is eternal marriage. So, Joseph Smith didn't make any misleading statements on the subject, nor was he wrong.

Eternal marriage does not exist. This is what the Bible says:


Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
(Matthew 22:29-30 NKJV)

And "like" is not the same as "are".

Pretty straightforward. That which contradicts the written Word of God in the Bible is wrong.

 

[brotherofJared]

You’re trying to change mormonism.

Nope. But I believe you are. You're trying to make Mormonism fit your animus and it doesn't.

I think you’re even trying to get mormons to believe it’s something different than what it really is.

No. That's your job.

The things you think you’re “teaching” here are definitely NOT mormonism.

No. The things you think we teach is definitely NOT Mormonism.

Look. The results are the same. You think we'll teach polygamy. I agree. We do. You think that it will be practiced such that women are assigned to me to be baby-makers. I don't. I think that women will decide if they want to be married and if there are no available men, they can pick and choose whichever man they want to be married to knowing full well they are entering into a polygamist relationship. It's their choice. The end result is the same. The way to that result is point where we differ.

God didn't make anyone become a Christian. He didn't make anyone get married. God didn't make assignments for marriage partners. The Garden of Eden would seem to be the exception to that rule, but as I pointed out, we don't believe that the Garden epic is literal and that Adam and Eve were born and raised to maturity in a community of other potential Adams and Eves, as we do here. And they chose who they wanted to be married to.

So, the reality is, choice has always been an option and it will continue to be so.

 

[Magdalena]

Nope. But I believe you are. You're trying to make Mormonism fit your animus and it doesn't.

No. That's your job.

No. The things you think we teach is definitely NOT Mormonism.

Look. The results are the same. You think we'll teach polygamy. I agree. We do. You think that it will be practiced such that women are assigned to me to be baby-makers. I don't. I think that women will decide if they want to be married and if there are no available men, they can pick and choose whichever man they want to be married to knowing full well they are entering into a polygamist relationship. It's their choice. The end result is the same. The way to that result is point where we differ.

God didn't make anyone become a Christian. He didn't make anyone get married. God didn't make assignments for marriage partners. The Garden of Eden would seem to be the exception to that rule, but as I pointed out, we don't believe that the Garden epic is literal and that Adam and Eve were born and raised to maturity in a community of other potential Adams and Eves, as we do here. And they chose who they wanted to be married to.

So, the reality is, choice has always been an option and it will continue to be so.

We go by what Mormon leaders have taught in presenting Mormon beliefs, not by anything you say. You’ve made up your own version of mormonism, and you’re trying to convince people to believe it. Yours is just as false as the Mormon beliefs are.

 

[brotherofJared]

We go by what Mormon leaders have taught in presenting Mormon beliefs

That is demonstrably false. You think they teach that we produce spirit babies through sexual relations and yet you aren't able to produce a single quote that says anything about spirit babies being produced through sexual relations. Clearly, you all believe what you want to about what they said, and when any viable alternative interpretation is offered, you rejected it. You have to reject them. It doesn't fit your animus.

I willingly admit that no one knows how spirits come about. You all imagine that God made them all out of nothing, a theory that caves in on itself and puts such beliefs in the realm of magic. You claim we believe that they are born through sexual relations between resurrected beings. And I believe, as the scriptures state, they have always existed co-eternal with God. In our theology, there appears to be a limitless supply of them that would indicate that something is generating new ones all the time, or, as I suspect, the reality is based on the idea that there is no space that is empty or where nothing exists and there is no end to the universe.

As far as polygamy is concerned, you seemed to be conflicted over the word "given" where nothing says who is doing the giving. You assume that some "man" is doing the giving and the person being given has no choice in the matter. That is your own concoction. It seems reasonable to me that the person doing the giving is the person being given and they do so through mutual agreement, the person receiving agrees with the person being given.

To me, that just makes your view of it pessimistic and negative and that's a really sad view.

You’ve made up your own version of mormonism

No. You've made your own view of Mormonism.

and you’re trying to convince people to believe it.

and you're trying to convince people to believe it.

 

[Magdalena]

Now you've moved to arranged marriages. So what if that's the way it used to be done. Where did you ever get the idea that marriages were ever arranged under Jesus Christ or that we ever taught that they were arranged in a perfect order? I've explained here numerous times that it's up to the woman. If she doesn't want to be married, she doesn't have to be. The same is true of men.

Again, that's your view, it is not the church's view.

It is dripping with animus.

Your reality, maybe, but that's your view through very colored lens.

Nope. I don't like what you think the church teaches and I explain what it actually does teach. I understand you can't see that. There's nothing I can do about the way you see things, but at least there's an argument to refute your version of reality.

The choice is to have children or not. Your idea that there will be ab arranged marriage is purely in your imagination, hence, your version of reality. It doesn't actually exist.

That's what you think, it is not Mormonism's belief. There may be a lot of Mormons who will be surprised that many of their beliefs simply aren't what they imagined they would be. But, at least they will see it to be surprised. Our critics, on the other hand, may never see it. I'm sure that what they do see will conform to their expectations.

I don't see that as a problem. If you don't want to have children, don't. As I said before, we have no idea what a servant does. There's not much that gods can't do for themselves, so, what is there for a servant to do?

And you have no idea what you're talking about. Most of what you post is just a bunch of your own blather. See how that works?

In early mormonism, there were arranged marriages. Helen Marr Kimball’s father gave her to Joseph Smith. Then they spiritually blackmailed her into thinking it was God’s will and her family’s eternal salvation depended on it. Joseph Smith told all the other women he pursued that God told him he should marry them. So who was “giving” them to Smith? Was that to have children?

Do you even have any idea how many girls have been given to men as wives, following in Smith’s footsteps? It’s a putrid, evil practice that they expect to continue in the millennium when they resume outright polygamy.

You obviously don’t understand Mormon polygamy.

 

[brotherofJared]

In early mormonism, there were arranged marriages. Helen Marr Kimball’s father gave her to Joseph Smith.

So? What has that got to do with your assertion that women will be assigned husbands after death?

Then they spiritually blackmailed her into thinking it was God’s will and her family’s eternal salvation depended on it. Joseph Smith told all the other women he pursued that God told him he should marry them. So who was “giving” them to Smith? Was that to have children?

I'm not sure what your last question is about. But the rest of it is your slanted view through your colored lens. There was not spiritual blackmail and in every instance, the woman did the giving. He asked and they accepted. No blackmail, no coercion even though you'd like it to be that way, it wasn't.

Do you even have any idea how many girls have been given to men as wives, following in Smith’s footsteps?

No. Do you? It's not relevant. I wasn't talking about what happened in the past. I was talking about women who want to have children in the eternities will need a husband to do that. There will be a dearth of men who will be exalted in comparison to men, IMO. In any case, there is no way there will be an even pairing. Unless God plays patty cake in the mud and makes a man just for them. there own personal Ken doll.

The way it has been done is man's own folly. I'm sure there were assignments made. I don't know how rampant it was in the church nor do I care. The fact remains that as long as there is eternal marriage, there will be the option for polygamy. It can't be avoided. These marriages, of course, will occur in the Millenium when the veil is thin and we will know who the dead who never had a chance to be married can be married to those who they choose.

You obviously don’t understand Mormon polygamy.

You obviously don't understand polygamy.

 

[Magdalena]

So? What has that got to do with your assertion that women will be assigned husbands after death?

That’s how mormon polygamy works.

I'm not sure what your last question is about. But the rest of it is your slanted view through your colored lens. There was not spiritual blackmail and in every instance, the woman did the giving. He asked and they accepted. No blackmail, no coercion even though you'd like it to be that way, it wasn't.

Who was giving those women to Smith? And those little girls. They didn’t just all run up to him clamoring to be his wives. And it wasn’t to have children either. Although he did have sex with a lot of them. Why marry 14 year olds? That wasn’t because of a shortage of men.

Helen Kimball said they told her that her family’s eternal salvation rested on her marrying Smith. Other women said Smith told them God said he was supposed to marry them. That’s coercion.

No. Do you? It's not relevant. I wasn't talking about what happened in the past. I was talking about women who want to have children in the eternities will need a husband to do that. There will be a dearth of men who will be exalted in comparison to men, IMO. In any case, there is no way there will be an even pairing. Unless God plays patty cake in the mud and makes a man just for them. there own personal Ken doll.

You have a pitiful view of God.

The way it has been done is man's own folly. I'm sure there were assignments made. I don't know how rampant it was in the church nor do I care.

The fact is that girls as young as 12 are still being giving to old men as wives because of what Joseph Smith started. It was rampant then, and it still is. People kept believing what Smith and Young taught and practiced about polygamy. So they kept it going even after the mormon church pretended to stop doing it.

The fact remains that as long as there is eternal marriage, there will be the option for polygamy. It can't be avoided.

There is no marriage there. No need for polygamy.

These marriages, of course, will occur in the Millenium when the veil is thin and we will know who the dead who never had a chance to be married can be married to those who they choose.

If there aren’t enough, they can’t have a choice.

You obviously don't understand polygamy.

Actually, I do. Many of my relatives still practice it, in one group or another. They believe it never stopped being a commandment from Smith. And that it will be again.

 

[Fenuay]

No such "Mormon belief" exists. All marriages can and will be performed here on this earth or in a terrestrial world, but not in heaven. Adam and Eve, married in the garden of Eden. When the Lord has returned to rule during the Millennium, this world will be a Terrestrial world and just like we perform marriages for those who are dead, we will be performing marriages for those who have died without the opportunity to get married.

Joseph Smith taught that the mothers of those deceased children will be able to raise them to maturity, This will give them an opportunity to find a companion and get married, but it will be a mortal who performs the ordinances for them just like we perform ordinances for the dead today.

How all that is supposed to happen, I don't know. But the opportunity will be afforded to all who have ever lived or would have lived on this earth.

I also was taught that there will be opportunity to marry in the millennium but that the parties would have a choice on the matter.

 

[Magdalena]

I also was taught that there will be opportunity to marry in the millennium but that the parties would have a choice on the matter.

Young girls don’t have a choice.

 

[Markk]

All marriages can and will be performed here on this earth or in a terrestrial world,

CFR on the terrestrial world marriage? Where is that taught? Are you just saying another earth of another God, or maybe another earth of elohim …please expound and offer a cf. CFR.

Joseph mainly worried about himself and the the tithe paying men. He left the women kinda in limbo on what their eternal destiny might hold.

 

[Fenuay]

Young girls don’t have a choice.

Just sharing what I was taught. They never mentioned anything about young girls to me.

 

[brotherofJared]

I also was taught that there will be opportunity to marry in the millennium but that the parties would have a choice on the matter.

I agree. @Magdalena thinks they will be assigned and @Markk thinks we'll manufacture as many as we want.

My point was simply.that.marriages will not occur in heaven after the resurrection. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with entering a relationship if u wait untill u know everything about the person before u marry them. The whole prospect of marriage is learning to work together and in many cases learning to love someone when there are things they do that u hate .

 

[brotherofJared]

Just sharing what I was taught. They never mentioned anything about young girls to me.

Yeah. I think a thousand years will be plenty of time for them to grow up.

 

[Magdalena]

I agree. @Magdalena thinks they will be assigned and @Markk thinks we'll manufacture as many as we want.

My point was simply.that.marriages will not occur in heaven after the resurrection. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with entering a relationship if u wait untill u know everything about the person before u marry them. The whole prospect of marriage is learning to work together and in many cases learning to love someone when there are things they do that u hate .

Arranged marriages are not relationsips. It’s trafficking. Especially when young girls are involved. It happened in mormonism. It’s still happening in offshoot groups who are still following the directions of Mormon founders. And it’s the plan for eternity.

 

[Magdalena]

Just sharing what I was taught. They never mentioned anything about young girls to me.

Any idea how many young girls have been married off to older men because of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?