Pope tells theologians to consult ‘non-Catholics,’

1Thess521

Well-known member

Pope tells theologians to consult ‘non-Catholics,’​

avoid ‘going backward’ in Tradition​


Pope Francis has warned an influential, Vatican-based theological commission against “going backward” in “Tradition,” instead urging them to promote the Gospel by consulting non-Catholic “experts.”
 

Pope tells theologians to consult ‘non-Catholics,’​

avoid ‘going backward’ in Tradition​


Pope Francis has warned an influential, Vatican-based theological commission against “going backward” in “Tradition,” instead urging them to promote the Gospel by consulting non-Catholic “experts.”
Whenever I see an article from LifeSite News I am very careful to separate the authentic and unbiased story from the decidedly right-wing bias of LifeSite News, which has no official standing in the Church and is well-known for favoring a return to mass in Latin and against many of the reforms of Vatican II. So in reading this article I skipped all the LifeSite commentary and went straight to the actual remarks made by the Pontiff two days ago to the members of the International Theological Commission. Here they are translated from the original Italian so that we can all read them without LifeSite spin:

Dear brothers and sisters, good morning!

I thank Cardinal Ladaria for his courteous words and I express my gratitude to all of you for the generosity, competence and passion with which you have undertaken your service in this tenth five-year period of activity of the International Theological Commission.

Thanks to the tools we have at our disposal today, you have been able to start your work remotely, overcoming the difficulties still caused by the pandemic. And I am also delighted at the reception you have reserved for the proposals of the three themes to be explored: the first is the indispensable and always fruitful relevance of the Christological faith professed by the Council of Nicaea, at the 1700th anniversary of its celebration (325-2025 ); the second is the examination of some anthropological questions emerging today and of crucial significance for the journey of the human family, in the light of the divine plan of salvation; and the third is the deepening - today increasingly urgent and decisive - of the theology of creation in a Trinitarian perspective, listening to the cry of the poor and of the earth.

By addressing these issues, the International Theological Commission continues its service with renewed commitment. You are called to carry it out in the wake traced out by the Second Vatican Council, which - sixty years after its inception - constitutes the sure compass for the journey of the Church, "the sacrament, in Christ, of union with God and of the unity of all mankind" (Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 1).

I would like to show you three directions of march, in this historical moment; arduous moment yet, for the gaze of faith, charged with the promise and hope that flow from the Easter of the crucified and risen Lord.

The first guideline is that of creative fidelity to Tradition. It is a question of assuming with faith and love and of declining with rigor and openness the commitment to exercise the ministry of theology - listening to the Word of God, the sensus fidei of the People of God, the Magisterium and the charisms, and in discerning of the signs of the times – for the progress of the Apostolic Tradition, under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, as taught by Dei Verbum (cf. n. 8). Indeed, Benedict XVI describes Tradition as "the living river in which the origins are always present" (Catechesis, April 26, 2006); so that it "irrigates different lands, feeds different geographies, making the best of that land, the best of that culture, germinate. In this way, the Gospel continues to be incarnated in all corners of the world, in an ever new way" (Apostolic Constitution Veritatis gaudium, 4d).

Tradition, the origin of faith, which either grows or fades. Because, one said – I think it was a musician – that tradition is the guarantee of the future and not a museum piece. It is what makes the Church grow from the bottom up, like a tree: the roots. Instead, another said that traditionalism is the "dead faith of the living": when you close yourself off. Tradition - I want to underline this - makes us move in this direction: from down to up: vertical. Today there is a great danger, which is to go in another direction: "backwardism". Going back. “It has always been done this way”: it is better to go backwards, which is safer, and not to go forward with tradition. This horizontal dimension, as we have seen, has prompted some movements, ecclesial movements, to remain fixed in a time, in a backwards. They are the backwards. I am thinking - to make a historical reference - of some movement born at the end of Vatican I, trying to be faithful to tradition, and so today they develop in order to order women, and other things, outside this vertical direction, where the moral conscience grows, the awareness of faith grows, with that beautiful rule of Vincent of Lérins: "ut annis consolidatetur, dilatetur tempore, sublimetur aetate". This is the rule of growth. Instead, backwardness leads you to say that "it's always been done this way, it's better to go on like this", and it doesn't let you grow. On this point, you theologians think a little about how to help.

The second guideline concerns the opportunity, in order to pertinently and incisively carry out the work of deepening and inculturating the Gospel, to be prudently open to the contribution of the various disciplines thanks to the consultation of experts, including non-Catholic ones, as envisaged by the Statutes of the Commission (cf. n. 10). It is a question - I hoped for it in the Apostolic Constitution Veritatis gaudium - of treasuring the «principle of interdisciplinarity: not so much in its "weak" form of simple multidisciplinarity, as an approach that favors a better understanding from multiple points of view of an object of study; but rather in its "strong" form of transdisciplinarity, as the collocation and fermentation of all knowledge within the space of Light and Life offered by the Wisdom that emanates from God's Revelation» (n. 4c).

Finally, the third guideline is that of collegiality. It acquires particular relevance and can offer a specific contribution in the context of the synodal process, in which the entire People of God is summoned. This is underlined by the document elaborated in this regard, in the previous five years, on Synodality in the life and mission of the Church: « As with any other Christian vocation, the theologian's ministry, in addition to being personal, is community and collegial. Ecclesial synodality therefore commits theologians to do theology in synodal form, promoting among them the ability to listen, dialogue, discern and integrate the multiplicity and variety of requests and contributions" (n. 75).

Theologians must go further, try to go further. But I want to distinguish this from the catechist: the catechist must give the right doctrine, solid doctrine; not any novelties, some of which are good, but what is solid; the catechist transmits solid doctrine. The theologian risks going further, and it will be the magisterium that will stop him. But the vocation of the theologian is always to take the risk of going further, because he is searching, and he is trying to make theology more explicit. But never give catechesis to children and people with new doctrines that are not sure. This distinction is not mine, it belongs to St. Ignatius of Loyola, who I believe understood something better than me!

I therefore wish you, in this spirit of mutual listening, dialogue and community discernment, open to the voice of the Holy Spirit, a serene and fruitful work. The topics entrusted to your attention and expertise are of great importance in this new stage of the proclamation of the Gospel that the Lord calls us to live as a Church at the service of universal brotherhood in Christ. In fact, they invite us to fully assume the gaze of the disciple who, with ever new amazement, recognizes that Christ, "precisely by revealing the mystery of the Father and of his love, also fully reveals man to himself and manifests to him his supreme vocation" (Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et spes, 22); and thus He teaches us that "the fundamental law of human perfection, and therefore also of the transformation of the world, is the new commandment of love" (ibid., 38). And I used the word “astonishment”. I think it is important, perhaps not so much for researchers, but certainly for theology professors: to ask ourselves whether theology lessons cause astonishment in those who follow them. This is a good criterion, it can help.

Dear brothers and sisters, I thank you for your precious, truly precious service. I heartily bless each one of you and your collaborators. And I ask you please to pray for me.

I believe that perhaps it would be important to increase the number of women, not because they are fashionable, but because they think differently from men and make theology something deeper and even more "tasty". Thank you.
 
Whenever I see an article from LifeSite News I am very careful to separate the authentic and unbiased story from the decidedly right-wing bias of LifeSite News, which has no official standing in the Church and is well-known for favoring a return to mass in Latin and against many of the reforms of Vatican II. So in reading this article I skipped all the LifeSite commentary and went straight to the actual remarks made by the Pontiff two days ago to the members of the International Theological Commission. Here they are translated from the original Italian so that we can all read them without LifeSite spin:

Dear brothers and sisters, good morning!

I thank Cardinal Ladaria for his courteous words and I express my gratitude to all of you for the generosity, competence and passion with which you have undertaken your service in this tenth five-year period of activity of the International Theological Commission.

Thanks to the tools we have at our disposal today, you have been able to start your work remotely, overcoming the difficulties still caused by the pandemic. And I am also delighted at the reception you have reserved for the proposals of the three themes to be explored: the first is the indispensable and always fruitful relevance of the Christological faith professed by the Council of Nicaea, at the 1700th anniversary of its celebration (325-2025 ); the second is the examination of some anthropological questions emerging today and of crucial significance for the journey of the human family, in the light of the divine plan of salvation; and the third is the deepening - today increasingly urgent and decisive - of the theology of creation in a Trinitarian perspective, listening to the cry of the poor and of the earth.

By addressing these issues, the International Theological Commission continues its service with renewed commitment. You are called to carry it out in the wake traced out by the Second Vatican Council, which - sixty years after its inception - constitutes the sure compass for the journey of the Church, "the sacrament, in Christ, of union with God and of the unity of all mankind" (Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 1).

I would like to show you three directions of march, in this historical moment; arduous moment yet, for the gaze of faith, charged with the promise and hope that flow from the Easter of the crucified and risen Lord.

The first guideline is that of creative fidelity to Tradition. It is a question of assuming with faith and love and of declining with rigor and openness the commitment to exercise the ministry of theology - listening to the Word of God, the sensus fidei of the People of God, the Magisterium and the charisms, and in discerning of the signs of the times – for the progress of the Apostolic Tradition, under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, as taught by Dei Verbum (cf. n. 8). Indeed, Benedict XVI describes Tradition as "the living river in which the origins are always present" (Catechesis, April 26, 2006); so that it "irrigates different lands, feeds different geographies, making the best of that land, the best of that culture, germinate. In this way, the Gospel continues to be incarnated in all corners of the world, in an ever new way" (Apostolic Constitution Veritatis gaudium, 4d).

Tradition, the origin of faith, which either grows or fades. Because, one said – I think it was a musician – that tradition is the guarantee of the future and not a museum piece. It is what makes the Church grow from the bottom up, like a tree: the roots. Instead, another said that traditionalism is the "dead faith of the living": when you close yourself off. Tradition - I want to underline this - makes us move in this direction: from down to up: vertical. Today there is a great danger, which is to go in another direction: "backwardism". Going back. “It has always been done this way”: it is better to go backwards, which is safer, and not to go forward with tradition. This horizontal dimension, as we have seen, has prompted some movements, ecclesial movements, to remain fixed in a time, in a backwards. They are the backwards. I am thinking - to make a historical reference - of some movement born at the end of Vatican I, trying to be faithful to tradition, and so today they develop in order to order women, and other things, outside this vertical direction, where the moral conscience grows, the awareness of faith grows, with that beautiful rule of Vincent of Lérins: "ut annis consolidatetur, dilatetur tempore, sublimetur aetate". This is the rule of growth. Instead, backwardness leads you to say that "it's always been done this way, it's better to go on like this", and it doesn't let you grow. On this point, you theologians think a little about how to help.

The second guideline concerns the opportunity, in order to pertinently and incisively carry out the work of deepening and inculturating the Gospel, to be prudently open to the contribution of the various disciplines thanks to the consultation of experts, including non-Catholic ones, as envisaged by the Statutes of the Commission (cf. n. 10). It is a question - I hoped for it in the Apostolic Constitution Veritatis gaudium - of treasuring the «principle of interdisciplinarity: not so much in its "weak" form of simple multidisciplinarity, as an approach that favors a better understanding from multiple points of view of an object of study; but rather in its "strong" form of transdisciplinarity, as the collocation and fermentation of all knowledge within the space of Light and Life offered by the Wisdom that emanates from God's Revelation» (n. 4c).

Finally, the third guideline is that of collegiality. It acquires particular relevance and can offer a specific contribution in the context of the synodal process, in which the entire People of God is summoned. This is underlined by the document elaborated in this regard, in the previous five years, on Synodality in the life and mission of the Church: « As with any other Christian vocation, the theologian's ministry, in addition to being personal, is community and collegial. Ecclesial synodality therefore commits theologians to do theology in synodal form, promoting among them the ability to listen, dialogue, discern and integrate the multiplicity and variety of requests and contributions" (n. 75).

Theologians must go further, try to go further. But I want to distinguish this from the catechist: the catechist must give the right doctrine, solid doctrine; not any novelties, some of which are good, but what is solid; the catechist transmits solid doctrine. The theologian risks going further, and it will be the magisterium that will stop him. But the vocation of the theologian is always to take the risk of going further, because he is searching, and he is trying to make theology more explicit. But never give catechesis to children and people with new doctrines that are not sure. This distinction is not mine, it belongs to St. Ignatius of Loyola, who I believe understood something better than me!

I therefore wish you, in this spirit of mutual listening, dialogue and community discernment, open to the voice of the Holy Spirit, a serene and fruitful work. The topics entrusted to your attention and expertise are of great importance in this new stage of the proclamation of the Gospel that the Lord calls us to live as a Church at the service of universal brotherhood in Christ. In fact, they invite us to fully assume the gaze of the disciple who, with ever new amazement, recognizes that Christ, "precisely by revealing the mystery of the Father and of his love, also fully reveals man to himself and manifests to him his supreme vocation" (Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et spes, 22); and thus He teaches us that "the fundamental law of human perfection, and therefore also of the transformation of the world, is the new commandment of love" (ibid., 38). And I used the word “astonishment”. I think it is important, perhaps not so much for researchers, but certainly for theology professors: to ask ourselves whether theology lessons cause astonishment in those who follow them. This is a good criterion, it can help.

Dear brothers and sisters, I thank you for your precious, truly precious service. I heartily bless each one of you and your collaborators. And I ask you please to pray for me.

I believe that perhaps it would be important to increase the number of women, not because they are fashionable, but because they think differently from men and make theology something deeper and even more "tasty". Thank you.
ok lets only look at what the Pope said without LifeSite's commentary
Any comments on the three guidelines?
 
Theologians must go further, try to go further. But I want to distinguish this from the catechist: the catechist must give the right doctrine, solid doctrine; not any novelties, some of which are good, but what is solid; the catechist transmits solid doctrine. The theologian risks going further, and it will be the magisterium that will stop him. But the vocation of the theologian is always to take the risk of going further, because he is searching, and he is trying to make theology more explicit. But never give catechesis to children and people with new doctrines that are not sure. This distinction is not mine, it belongs to St. Ignatius of Loyola, who I believe understood something better than me!
This part has to be got across to those who don't quite trust the promise of Jesus that His Church by the power of the Holy Spirit, cannot err in matters of faith and morals. The Church shouldn't be afraid to hear from anyone, because the Magisterium will not adopt or teach anything that will hurt faith.
 
This part has to be got across to those who don't quite trust the promise of Jesus that His Church by the power of the Holy Spirit, cannot err in matters of faith and morals. The Church shouldn't be afraid to hear from anyone, because the Magisterium will not adopt or teach anything that will hurt faith.
Oh we all trust Jesus but we don't trust your false church which has gone into error in matters of faith and morals. Faith and morals are more than talk, the walk of your institution shows the errors.

The Magistrium has adopted false teachings and ignored evil fruit it has hurt the faith and the flock.
 
This part has to be got across to those who don't quite trust the promise of Jesus that His Church by the power of the Holy Spirit, cannot err in matters of faith and morals. The Church shouldn't be afraid to hear from anyone, because the Magisterium will not adopt or teach anything that will hurt faith.
please explain the contradictory teachings on the the death penalty
 
Even though he bless goddess, Pachamama and goes to pagan services?
He did not bless a goddess. He did go to a pagan service, but not as a believer of that religion, or to promote it.

But can we focus on the specific words quoted in the OP and not use this as excuse to trot out all the well-worn scripts against Catholicism that I have heard here for years?
 
He did not bless a goddess. He did go to a pagan service, but not as a believer of that religion, or to promote it.

But can we focus on the specific words quoted in the OP and not use this as excuse to trot out all the well-worn scripts against Catholicism that I have heard here for years?
He did bless a goddess. That has been proven with evidence in other threads. Of course his going promoted it and gave it authority.

We have focused ont he the op and of course these so called well own truths about your leader show the pattern of his anti Christian behaviour. Whether you like it or not. He has a pattern.

Yep RCs just want to focus on words and changing their meanings to justify the words used.
 
We have focused ont he the op and of course these so called well own truths about your leader show the pattern of his anti Christian behaviour. Whether you like it or not. He has a pattern.
The OP is about the particular address. Do you have anything to say about that particular address?
 
please explain the contradictory teachings on the the death penalty
It isn't contradictory. Some may mistakenly have believed that the death penalty was commanded by God for retribution, but while punishment itself is commanded by God, particular sentences have to serve the common good. Hence the death penalty is both no longer necessary to safeguard the community and for that reason, it is not in keeping with the basic human dignity of a person made in Gods image. The US is finding this teaching particularly difficult as the death penalty had become institutionalised but the majority of Christians countries had abandoned the sentence before the killing became 'clean'. That is when its gruesome nature was obvious in hangings or other forms of execution.
 
It isn't contradictory. Some may mistakenly have believed that the death penalty was commanded by God for retribution, but while punishment itself is commanded by God, particular sentences have to serve the common good. Hence the death penalty is both no longer necessary to safeguard the community and for that reason, it is not in keeping with the basic human dignity of a person made in Gods image. The US is finding this teaching particularly difficult as the death penalty had become institutionalised but the majority of Christians countries had abandoned the sentence before the killing became 'clean'. That is when its gruesome nature was obvious in hangings or other forms of execution.
capital punishment is acceptable under certain conditions
contradicts
capital punishment is never acceptable under any conditions
 
Some may mistakenly have believed that the death penalty was commanded by God for retribution

Genesis 2:16-17
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,


Yes, God is a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of justice and His justice demands death for sin.

There are 15 mentions of commanding a person to be put to death for sins committed in the book of Exodus.
The book of Leviticus has 18 mentions of people being put to death for sins. The book of numbers Numbers has 25 mentions of commanding people to be put to death for sins. The book of Deuteronomy has 24 mentions of commanding person's to be put to death for sins.

ALL of mankind deserves death, because ALL have sinned. No amount of human goodness and self righteousness can ever pay the penalty, that God's justice demands. There is no becoming righteous first. All our effects to save ourselves is insufficient. And this is the very reason Jesus died on the cross and as He gave up His spirit and died, He said "IT IS FINISHED". Jesus paid the cost in full for us on the cross.
 
Genesis 2:16-17
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,


Yes, God is a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of justice and His justice demands death for sin.

There are 15 mentions of commanding a person to be put to death for sins committed in the book of Exodus.
The book of Leviticus has 18 mentions of people being put to death for sins. The book of numbers Numbers has 25 mentions of commanding people to be put to death for sins. The book of Deuteronomy has 24 mentions of commanding person's to be put to death for sins.

ALL of mankind deserves death, because ALL have sinned. No amount of human goodness and self righteousness can ever pay the penalty, that God's justice demands. There is no becoming righteous first. All our effects to save ourselves is insufficient. And this is the very reason Jesus died on the cross and as He gave up His spirit and died, He said "IT IS FINISHED". Jesus paid the cost in full for us on the cross.
You're addressing here something different to the civil sentence of capital punishment and it's purpose. We are all certainly going to die but civil authorities are not granted omniscience by Scripture and have to judge within the realm of 'the common good' for which they are responsible.
 
What are you quoting to mean 'never acceptable under any conditions'?


I was paraphrasing
the CCC 2267 once read:
“… the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty.

”Now the CCC 2267 was changed to read: “
… the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible.”
 
I was paraphrasing
the CCC 2267 once read:
“… the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty.

”Now the CCC 2267 was changed to read: “
… the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible.”
The Catechism is a resource for the era it serves. The death penalty doesn't serve the dignity of the human being today when there are non lethal ways of safeguarding the community. That is why it's deemed inadmissible. It's not out of the question that it might be necessary on some basis in the future as it was deemed necessary for Osama bin Laden. But in general terms, the death penalty isn't necessary and is thereby inadmissible.
 
1Thess521 said:
I was paraphrasing
the CCC 2267 once read:
“… the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty.

”Now the CCC 2267 was changed to read: “
… the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible.”
======================================================================
Buzz says
Proverbs 5:1​
My son, attend unto my wisdom,
and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion,
and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb,
and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood,
sharp as a two-edged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps take hold on hell.
6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life,
her ways are moveable,
that thou canst not know them.​

and Stella says
The Catechism is a resource for the era it serves. The death penalty doesn't serve the dignity of the human being today when there are non lethal ways of safeguarding the community. That is why it's deemed inadmissible. It's not out of the question that it might be necessary on some basis in the future as it was deemed necessary for Osama bin Laden. But in general terms, the death penalty isn't necessary and is thereby inadmissible.
 
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