Preach the Gospel to Babies. Children, & to the Mentally Challenged

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
The biggest excuse which is no excuse, that babies, children, and the mentally challenged do not understand, but scripture says otherwise.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So the Father draws ALL of ANY AGE unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved. Our believing is not done by a persuasion of a man's speech but the Spirit's power.

1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

So do not hinder the babies, nor the little children, nor the mentally challenged from hearing the gospel to believe in Him to be saved.

Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

We can sing Christian songs to little babies, children, and mentally challenged as well as share the Good News with them.

Indeed, pregnant women can speak to their unborn child in the womb, since it is the Father that draws them unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Share the Good News with your captive audience today, trusting the Father to draw them unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved.

Let them come to the door of Jesus Christ in joy today, knowing the Father is the One that draws them to the Son to reveal His Son to them so they can believe in Jesus Christ to be saved..

1. You are using John 6:44 completely out of its context. Don't do that. It's one of the things that people who have been harmed by false religion will fault you for. You can use it to demonstrate election of those who will be redeemed, but not mental challenges.

2. Again, Matthew 11:25 has a context that you have ignored. Same thing for Mark 10:13. The use of
'babes and children' is used as an example against the puffed up, so called wise and intelligent. The gospel is not hard to understand.

3. Mark 9:23 does not begin to support your OP. In fact, it refutes it. Can the mentally challenged believe all things are possible?

4. I have a personal belief that speaking to one's child in utero might be effective, but the Bible doesn't teach it.

5. You have faith, but let's now allow God to gather the elect.

6. Last, and this is not meant to insult, but rather to keep the Bible free of personal theology. The Bible does not teach what you are saying it does.

7. The proper exegesis of scripture is what all Christians to do. I use the historical/grammatical hermeneutic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical-grammatical_method

8. The entire idea that we can impose our faulty beliefs upon the holy scriptures is wrong and can be dangerous.

9. There is no harm in preaching the gospel to every living creature, but let's not try to make the Bible say, what it does not say.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I say leave the kids alone. They're too young to discern truth from baloney. Religious indoctrination of children often constitutes abuse especially when fear and guilt are involved. I should know because I suffered religious abuse as a child and even as a young adult. I don't want anybody else to be victimized.

As for the "mentally challenged," it looks like you've already converted them.

I don't believe that you will be able to convince most true Christians that your view is correct.

People can be victimized by the perversion of the scriptures. The prosperity gospel is completely vile and unacceptable to people who believe in Jesus Christ.


People will believe in all kinds of nonsense especially when young and/or vulnerable.


Parents indoctrinate their children. That's a fact. My parents weren't believers when I was a child. However, I was taught the difference between right and wrong, but others likely won't accept that.

Don't take your shameful experiences out on others. You are an adult now. In a very real sense, I understand your view. There are people here at CARM who would consider it a joy to help you find the real Jesus. Learning the correct way to use scripture will help you to see, when people are lying for personal gain.

Consider that Jesus was the ultimate 'victim' of religious abuse.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
No it does not.

”Babes” here does NOT mean babies, as in, one-year old babies. Contrary to your opinion, Jesus is not telling us that one-year old babies, or mentally retarded, or even brain-dead people lying on a hospital bed, understand who or what God is.

Your OP is a perfect example what happens when a reader misses the actual point of a passage, finds a word that stands out to them, takes it literally, and heads off on a tangent over the cliff.


Nope.

God does not give understanding of himself to a new-born baby because a newborn baby lacks cognitive capacity to even know what God is, much less to choose between good or bad.

You are twisting an idea to erroneously imply that the Spirit‘s power can help a newborn baby understand salvation, God, good versus bad, etc. You have missed the point entirely.

Our believing results from the preaching of others and interaction of the Spirit upon the soul which is capable of understanding the message preached. Therefore, newborn babies, mentally retarded, and brain-dead hospital patients would naturally be excluded.


Please note that Paul is writing to adults who have capacity for understanding what he is writing. Nowhere is he writing to newborn babies or mentally retarded people.

Nope. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to preach the Gospel to newborn babies. You have erroneously taken a single word from a passage you do not understand and went off a cliff.

Has nothing to do with the physical age but more to do with faith as a child. Children are blank slates and open to all ideas, whereas, adults may be rooted in error already precluding them from being receptive to truth.

Jesus is not implying a newborn baby understands the Gospel better than an adult. You have missed the point and went off a cliff.

Sing to newborns all you want and they may enjoy the melody but they will not understand the words.

Nope, the unborn baby does not understand God, good versus evil, repentance, etc. The mothers voice may serve to imprint upon the unborn’s psyche a familial comfort or such benefit, but it has nothing to do with the unborn understanding anything about God. The brain is not developed enough for that.

Again, twisting scripture to promote your erroneous interpretation of scripture.
Believing does not make anything possible, to include your theory, that newborn babies understand God, salvation, Jesus, etc.

Nope. Not scriptural, (not even reality) only in your false opinion can a newborn baby, mentally retarded, brain-dead hospital patients understand God, salvation, Jesus, good versus bad, etc.

Your OP is a perfect example of erroneously applying scripture to promote a false idea. Then you dress the false idea with Christian imagery to make it sound authentic. It would be like putting a dress on a pig on its way to the prom. It is doomed from the beginning.

This is where you tell me that if only I knew Jesus as you do then I would not be opposed to your “wisdom” or “understanding“.

If only I had a nickel every time someone told me that.
Excellent response to very bad exegesis. ✝️✝️
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Actually, that is the motivation behind them not telling little children because they are too young to understand and be serious "religiously" in following Jesus.

Reread the scriptures again in the OP or see why Christianity was never supposed to be a religion of what man can do, but what God has done and can do for us after having reconciled us through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So you were ripped off by religious minded Christians that thinks they can finish by the flesh what was begun in the Spirit, looking to you to be serious when you & they should be trusting Jesus Christ to help them to follow Him after having been saved by Him.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So forget about all those religious Christians and religious churches. Listen to His words because children are free to come to Him to rest in Him today. It is the religious people that have a hard time finding their rest in Jesus Christ by taking Him at His word which is all little children can do.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is tedious. Stop abusing the scriptures with bad eisegesis.

BTW, although the KJV is a good translation, the majority of people can't read it because they don't speak 17th century English. Try the NKJV. It's readable and completely accurate.

Get a workable Bible hermeneutic.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I don't believe that you will be able to convince most true Christians that your view is correct.

People can be victimized by the perversion of the scriptures. The prosperity gospel is completely vile and unacceptable to people who believe in Jesus Christ.


People will believe in all kinds of nonsense especially when young and/or vulnerable.


Parents indoctrinate their children. That's a fact. My parents weren't believers when I was a child. However, I was taught the difference between right and wrong, but others likely won't accept that.

Don't take your shameful experiences out on others. You are an adult now. In a very real sense, I understand your view. There are people here at CARM who would consider it a joy to help you find the real Jesus. Learning the correct way to use scripture will help you to see, when people are lying for personal gain.

Consider that Jesus was the ultimate 'victim' of religious abuse.
What is the prosperity gospel?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Yes, that is horrible and dangerous.

Yet, people who claim to be Christians believe it. This is just one of the things that happens when people (such as the OP) interprets his personal beliefs onto the scriptures. It comes from the idea, that people should interpret the scriptures based on what they think the scripture means.

I could use the Bible to support any evil nonsense by perverting the scriptures, removing it from its context and claiming my own beliefs as correct. The Bible is the only true teacher of the gospel. It must be handled carefully with the aid of the Holy Spirit (which only true Christians have).

God Speed my friend ✝️ ✝️
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Scripture can prove anything when God can cause the increase, even for a carnal mind to be able to receive.

I think you have the right idea, but scripture can be PERVERTED to prove anything. Your OP is not perverse, but the scriptures you posted don't prove what you say it does.

The Book of Acts was written by Luke as led by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in that Book of Acts that has Paul as self appointed.

Peter regarded the epistles of Paul's as scripture.

While not completely true, Paul was the teacher to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews. Peter and Paul disagreed on many things which is why they were given different audiences. If you are going to use the Bible, use it correctly. This issue begins in Acts Chapter 15 and on. It's called the Jerusalem council.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You have just proven my point. You have just cherry picked the Bible to force your interpretation on it.

There is nothing in regards to Paul that testify of himself as of a religious mind. Paul has spoken of his religious mind as under the law to show comparison to how he is as no longer under the law as a Christian when you read Romans 7th chapter with 8thchapter with His discernment.

Paul was of a religious mind as demonstrated by Jesus when he confronted Paul on the Damascus Road. Why do you think that Jesus said this to him:

Acts 22:6-11 6"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' 8"'Who are you, LORD?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. 10"'What shall I do, LORD?' I asked. " 'Get up,' the LORD said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

Acts 9:1-9 1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the LORD's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5"Who are you, LORD?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.


You have to tell the whole truth, not just the part you like.

He even considered his former life under the law & all that he had accomplished as dung in verse 8 in 3rd chapter of Philippians.

Philippians 3:1-21

This is completely correct. Thank you.

Believers can discern con artists by the words of Paul as well as other scripture with the Lord's help in applying discernment towards false leaders.

Untrue. Many believers who are not mature in the faith, or those who have been lied to, cannot properly discern the things of God.

I'm quite sure you are a zealous believer, but perhaps you have gone too far in the wrong direction. Learn to properly exegete scripture.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I see no difference.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

The above seems like a death sentence.

are you saying it is not?

Isn't there a text in the OT saying; roughly, 'do not beautify the altar for it is a a place of death'.

If you perceive this as a death sentence, it's your own faulty opinion.

It does speak to a life that is devoted to the things of God. However, I admit that many believers have died for their beliefs. The earliest Christians were fed to the lions. Everyone dies.

There are a couple of texts in the OT that speak of altars. You don't give any other salient details. You might even have the wrong religion.

While Christianity honors the first descendent of Abraham, the Muslims worship Ishmael. He was buried next to his mother in Mecca.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
If you perceive this as a death sentence, it's your own faulty opinion.

It does speak to a life that is devoted to the things of God. However, I admit that many believers have died for their beliefs. The earliest Christians were fed to the lions. Everyone dies.

There are a couple of texts in the OT that speak of altars. You don't give any other salient details. You might even have the wrong religion.

While Christianity honors the first descendent of Abraham, the Muslims worship Ishmael. He was buried next to his mother in Mecca.

alrighty then.
 
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Hark

Well-known member
I don't disagree with teaching them. I just don't think it's right to expect a lot of retention.
When you consider that once they believe in Him and are saved, then trusting the Lord as their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him is on Him, rather than on their ability of retention. With the Holy Spirit in them as the Comforter to remind all that He has taught them, it is really the reason why it is written that the just shall live by faith & why little children are free to come to Him, not just to be saved, but for following Him too.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Impartations of truth can go past the mind and it's abilities. We have a spiritual side that is receptive. I would never put a high demand on someone who has extreme limitations, but even when they don't understand everything the Holy Spirit can impart things to them.
Since it is on God to cause the increase & on Jesus Christ to finish what He has started in them, we do not have to worry about the ability of the recipient nor our own teaching limitation in imparting the truth. It is His ministry and as you testify, the Holy Spirit can impart the words of Christ to them and remind them too.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Agreed he teaches us to have the very same from the Father he had from Him. He is the way the truth and the life we all live who has followed him to the Father. And he was spot on, no one comes to the Father except this way.

It is a matter of what one believes. A believer as in Satan believes, or a Catholic, or a Mormon, or a Muslim, Baptist, AOG, COC, Charismatic?

But we who are of God it isnt a belief at all it is God manifest Himself in us just as He did in Jesus.

If you want confirmation by Jesus words then, be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Be one in the Father with He in you and you in Him as one as Jesus was one in Him and He was in Jesus as one, as Jesus was clear in prayer to his God for you to be in John 17. And walk as He walks in His same light as Jesus and have the same signs follow you as Jesus stated it will. And no one come to the Father but by me having the same from the Father His way His truth and His life as Jesus did and no one come to the Father but this way.

Not many hear him that they may walk as he walks in His same light with the same signs following do they?



After the rapture? All who has received form God that what Jesus received from Him are taken out of this world, we are no longer of it as you are of it, we are of His kingdom that is Spirit and doesnt come with observation but is within us, Luke 17:20-21. You are of this world is all and do not know what it is to be of His kingdom, that is very obvious.

He goes on and instructs you to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect and have the same from the Father he had from Him, John 17, same mind, same walk as He walks as Jesus walked in it yourself. .

That price is you giving up the right to yourself, self sacrifice, and putting on the same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus. But you know and I know and God knows you will not give up your religious beliefs to receieve from Him that what Jesus did to walk as He walks in His same light will you? You are left behind already.

So you have a better way for me than God Himself has given me as He gave Jesus? Jesus was clear that in that day I do receive from God that what he received from God I will not have to go to Jesus for anything but God Himself will give it me.

So you try and convince me as you have tried already -- that you have the better way than God Himself is able and has given me as He gave Jesus Himself that you deem His way to be inferior and you have the better way.

SO explain to me why is your way better for me to be like you instead of His way for me to be like Him that you are superior over Him in His ways for mankind that we may be as you are instead of Him?

You say only God can open my eyes yet you say your way to open them is superior over His Spirit be in me who opened my eyes just as He opend the eyes of Jesus in Matt 3:16 where all of heaven was opend to him as well by the same SPirit be in me who was in Christ Jesus. ,

If you are a god as you claim and you have the better way, just say so that I may follow you instead of the One who came to Jesus and sent him to show me the way to his God.

You claim your god is superior over the One who sent Jesus, you will have to prove your god is superior, until then I will cling to the One Jesus lead me to.
I have been pointing to Jesus Christ as the only way.

You seem to be the one acting as if those who believe in Him are not saved for one reason or another. It is by correcting any professing believer by pointing them to Him & His words; not for salvation, but for abiding in Him to be fruitful as His disciples so that their joy may be full.
 

Hark

Well-known member
1. You are using John 6:44 completely out of its context. Don't do that. It's one of the things that people who have been harmed by false religion will fault you for. You can use it to demonstrate election of those who will be redeemed, but not mental challenges.
It would be best to show how it was taken out of context by showing proper context.
2. Again, Matthew 11:25 has a context that you have ignored. Same thing for Mark 10:13. The use of
'babes and children' is used as an example against the puffed up, so called wise and intelligent. The gospel is not hard to understand.
I am familiar that "babes" is a term used for those adults that are newly born again and just learning His words, but it is the taking Him at His word is what a child can do and what the religious have trouble surrendering from their merits & will power to do.

Scripture is being used as a reproof towards the lie that little children cannot comprehend the seriousness in following Jesus and so they do not preach the gospel to them until they are old enough to be "serious" towards the Lord like a religious adult for when they come to & believe in Him to be saved. I am applying from the scripture used to go beyond the unthinkable and that is towards actual babes & even unborn babes when it is on the Father to draw any one to the Son to reveal the Son to them to be saved. What scripture supports that? What is impossible for man to do, it is possible with God. Scripture has time and again pointed to God Who does the ministry & the increase, so there is no limitation even in Him reaching the unborn child for He knew us before we were even formed in the womb.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

So until you prove that those scripture cannot be applied to why it is NOT on God to cause the increase when it is God Who ministers even in the womb, then why should we be refraining? Because of our "perceived" limited teaching abilities or their limited ability for "understanding" or their lack of maturity towards Jesus Christ? Not when our faith is on God totally for all things in Jesus Christ.
3. Mark 9:23 does not begin to support your OP. In fact, it refutes it. Can the mentally challenged believe all things are possible?
Not when those not mentally challenged, the believers, that are praying for the mentally challenged. Any parent out there that look to their loved ones because of the lie that it is impossible for the mentally challenged to understand just as it is impossible for that parent to reach that mentally challenged to hear & understand to believe in Jesus Christ, are the same as that father praying for his possessed child in Mark 9:23.
4. I have a personal belief that speaking to one's child in utero might be effective, but the Bible doesn't teach it.
Just as the Bible does not teach rapture or Trinity by that term, but the support for those terms are in there. When you see that we are nothing in His ministry as it is all on God, then we need to remove the misperceived notion that they cannot be reached by God by praying for them.
5. You have faith, but let's now allow God to gather the elect.
Right. So I will not be surprised when the Lord gathers up the pregnant woman with her unborn child at the rapture, but I shall be joyful.
6. Last, and this is not meant to insult, but rather to keep the Bible free of personal theology. The Bible does not teach what you are saying it does.
In all respect, scripture cannot go against scripture and so for any misapplication, correction for any misapplication can only be done by scripture.
7. The proper exegesis of scripture is what all Christians to do. I use the historical/grammatical hermeneutic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical-grammatical_method
Still requires showing how it was misapplied and then show scripture to prove that misapplication that shows scripture cannot go against scripture.
8. The entire idea that we can impose our faulty beliefs upon the holy scriptures is wrong and can be dangerous.
I agree but that can also apply towards putting the limitations on God in ministry too.
9. There is no harm in preaching the gospel to every living creature, but let's not try to make the Bible say, what it does not say.
Every living creature, including the ones being formed in the womb. Will they hear & understand what is being sung or said to them? Only when God ministers. That is why prayer is needed as we are to believe God can do the impossible, especially since He knew us before we were formed in the womb.

So there are scriptures that support my application of His words but I have not seen any scripture that refutes the application of His words.
 

Hark

Well-known member
aI think you have the right idea, but scripture can be PERVERTED to prove anything. Your OP is not perverse, but the scriptures you posted don't prove what you say it does.
Can other scripture disprove what I say? Since scripture cannot go against scripture is the only way to reprove misapplication, I still believe.
While not completely true, Paul was the teacher to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews. Peter and Paul disagreed on many things which is why they were given different audiences.
The gospel is the same. As for the many disagreements, there was only one that I know of regarding an incident of Peter separating himself from the Gentiles for when believers that were formerly Jews had come in. Galatians 2:11 Note in context of the right hand of fellowship as Cephas is Peter for why I believe there was only one disagreement that I know of between Paul & Peter.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. 11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Feel free to list any other disagreements because I am not seeing any other ones.

If you are going to use the Bible, use it correctly. This issue begins in Acts Chapter 15 and on. It's called the Jerusalem council.
I have read that, but I do not see Peter as being among those Paul & Barnabas had to correct. It was referenced as "certain men" that they needed to correct.

Acts 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

BUT when that issue was resolved, it was by Peter whom had stood up and so that incident Paul was talking about in Galatians 2nd chapter was not this incident in Acts 15.

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

I believe Peter separated himself out of habit during a meal event for why Paul reminded him and rebuked him for it.
You have just proven my point. You have just cherry picked the Bible to force your interpretation on it.
Since scripture in the O.T. were inspired by the Holy Ghost, what are New Testament scripture then? Did not Jesus say when they speak, they will be led by the Holy Spirit to speak? Then why not the epistles of Paul, Peter, & John? There is no forcing the interpretation there, by Peter's use of the word "also". I understand your point of view if you took the verse by itself, but other scriptures support that application and I see no scripture reproving that application.
Paul was of a religious mind as demonstrated by Jesus when he confronted Paul on the Damascus Road. Why do you think that Jesus said this to him:

Acts 22:6-11 6"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' 8"'Who are you, LORD?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. 10"'What shall I do, LORD?' I asked. " 'Get up,' the LORD said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

Acts 9:1-9 1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the LORD's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5"Who are you, LORD?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.


You have to tell the whole truth, not just the part you like.
To be clear; Saul was of the religious mind when he was persecuting the Jews. Being called Paul now is him not being of the religious mind. The quote you are responding to was to another poster claiming Paul was of that religious mind when I was sharing that he read Romans 7th chapter wrong for that was how Paul was before as under the law and not how he was now set free and no longer walking after the flesh under the law in Romans 8th chapter. I believe that was what that poster was referring to as I had come across another poster whom had deemed that Romans 7th chapter as if that was a present confession of Paul as if he was still Saul.
This is completely correct. Thank you.
As the Lord enables me...
Untrue. Many believers who are not mature in the faith, or those who have been lied to, cannot properly discern the things of God.
When they turn to scripture for discernment with the Lord, trusting Him to be the personal Good Shepherd, they can. The problem nowadays is that believers rely on those who went to college or earn that spot on television to do their work for them. They wind up following them as their good shepherds when they should be proving everything by His words & by Him Whom is the only Good Shepherd they should be following.
I'm quite sure you are a zealous believer, but perhaps you have gone too far in the wrong direction. Learn to properly exegete scripture.
Again, misapplication of any scripture can only be done by scripture since scripture cannot go against scripture. That is the only way you & I can learn or be corrected or informed is by this practice, leaning on the Lord to minister as it is on God to cause the increase.
 
I don't believe that you will be able to convince most true Christians that your view is correct.
OK, but at least don't beat the poor kids or bash in the heads of homosexuals. The Bible mandates both, but if you do either one and get caught, you will face felony charges. I might not be able to get people to think sensibly, but I can be part of the civilizing opposition to religion, and I am. We are winning no matter how much anybody insists on willful ignorance.
People can be victimized by the perversion of the scriptures.
Did Moses pervert the scriptures? We are told he issued both mandates I just mentioned. Like it or not, we as a civilized society have gone beyond the Bible's barbarism.
The prosperity gospel is completely vile and unacceptable to people who believe in Jesus Christ.
I remember reading the materials of prosperity preachers when I was a Christian. I saw nothing vile or unacceptable about it then. They made good use of Christ to rip people off, and my Christian faith blinded me to what they were doing. It wasn't until I got out of religion that I woke up to all those lies.
People will believe in all kinds of nonsense especially when young and/or vulnerable.
There we agree, but you seem to be unable to recognize some of that nonsense.
Don't take your shameful experiences out on others. You are an adult now.
As a truth seeker, I'm free to recognize evil and warn people about it. I will do so as much as the powers that be let me. You call for silencing my warning people of the dangers of religion, and your doing so is of course very immoral. It's what I'm up against--it's what we're all up against as long as we remain silent and do nothing.
In a very real sense, I understand your view. There are people here at CARM who would consider it a joy to help you find the real Jesus.
Are you referring to the people here at CARM who are insulting me? At least two of the Christians here have done so. Not one Christian here objected to what they did to me. I suppose they're like the Christians who did nothing while the Inquisition burned heretics.
Learning the correct way to use scripture will help you to see, when people are lying for personal gain.
The correct way to use scripture is to read it for the mythology that it is and not take its nonsense seriously.
Consider that Jesus was the ultimate 'victim' of religious abuse.
edit violation rule 25
 
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Beloved Daughter

Super Member
OK, but at least don't beat the poor kids or bash in the heads of homosexuals. The Bible mandates both, but if you do either one and get caught, you will face felony charges. I might not be able to get people to think sensibly, but I can be part of the civilizing opposition to religion, and I am. We are winning no matter how m?uch anybody insists on willful ignorance.

You're fooling yourself. I don't know where you live, but in America, the first amendment guarantees free speech, unless it is inciteful speech. It's not a felony by any stretch of the imagination. If a person commits a felonious act while ranting hateful speech, that's a penalty enhancement.

You can be part of whatever you choose, but I know the antics and tricks of the atheist elites. Dan Barker from the FFRF is my cousin. He has lies in 2 of his books. Watch him here:


Dan said this knowing that his books were on sale in the lobby. He lied about other family members. What do you think about a married man with 5 children moving to Wisconsin without them? Is the fact that Annie Laurie Gaylor lived there a coincidence?


Did Moses pervert the scriptures? We are told he issued both mandates I just mentioned. Like it or not, we as a civilized society have gone beyond the Bible's barbarism.

No, we haven't. We are a nation who has no care for the most vulnerable among us. We have exterminated more than 60 million of them. You can fact check this.


I remember reading the materials of prosperity preachers when I was a Christian. I saw nothing vile or unacceptable about it then. They made good use of Christ to rip people off, and my Christian faith blinded me to what they were doing. It wasn't until I got out of religion that I woke up to all those lies.

You don't get a pass. You can read and you could have countered this perversion with a bit of self study of the Bible. If something doesn't sound right, it probably isn't. Where was your responsibility? Crying about shameful people when you did nothing to verify what they said, doesn't say much about a person who claims to love Jesus. You didn't do your homework then, and, I'm saddened to see you aren't doing it now either. If nothing else, take the time to research what others tell you.

As a truth seeker, I'm free to recognize evil and warn people about it. I will do so as much as the powers that be let me. You call for silencing my warning people of the dangers of religion, and your doing so is of course very immoral. It's what I'm up against--it's what we're all up against as long as we remain silent and do nothing.

I didn't say I thought you were a truth seeker. You clearly failed at that endeavor. But it didn't have to be that way. You could have studied for yourself, but apparently it's easier to listen to liberal nonsense and outright lies.

Feel free to speak up, we'll speak up as well. There is a big shift coming. I hope you are ready.

Are you referring to the people here at CARM who are insulting me? At least two of the Christians here have done so. Not one Christian here objected to what they did to me. I suppose they're like the Christians who did nothing while the Inquisition burned heretics.

Some Christians aren't very nice, some are downright mean-spirited and in need of correction. The Bible speaks against this behavior, but people such as yourself, don't take the time to read it.

Titus 3:9
English Standard Version
9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

1 Peter 3:15
English Standard Version
15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Ephesians 4:29
English Standard Version
29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

1 Corinthians 1:10
English Standard Version
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Timothy 2:14
English Standard Version
14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

James 1:26
English Standard Version
26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.


Tell me, do you approve of Gay parades where simulated sexual behavior is open to the public? Should I allow my children to watch?


The correct way to use scripture is to read it for the mythology that it is and not take its nonsense seriously.

Says the person who couldn't take the time to read it.

Well in his case, he might have deserved what he got.

I won't respond to this. I will allow the rules to speak for themselves.


1. No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member. No negative comments of any sort concerning any board poster/member/moderator/administrator. The rule applies only to forum posters/members. Posters are personally responsible for any comments made on persons, not members of the forum.
2. Do not discuss a board poster on the forums/visitor messages/chat, do not comment using their user name, and, most importantly, no disrespectful comments about our Lord.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Can other scripture disprove what I say? Since scripture cannot go against scripture is the only way to reprove misapplication, I still believe.


I'm loathe to dive into this, but I recognize that you are a believer and clearly have a heart for the young and disabled. That matters very much.

You don't need a scripture for what is not there, but perverting what it does say is serious and sends the wrong message.

The gospel is the same. As for the many disagreements, there was only one that I know of regarding an incident of Peter separating himself from the Gentiles for when believers that were formerly Jews had come in. Galatians 2:11 Note in context of the right hand of fellowship as Cephas is Peter for why I believe there was only one disagreement that I know of between Paul & Peter.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. 11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Feel free to list any other disagreements because I am not seeing any other ones.

It's a very serious disagreement. Serious enough for the distinction of being the apostle to the Jews or the Gentiles.

I have read that, but I do not see Peter as being among those Paul & Barnabas had to correct. It was referenced as "certain men" that they needed to correct.

Acts 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

BUT when that issue was resolved, it was by Peter whom had stood up and so that incident Paul was talking about in Galatians 2nd chapter was not this incident in Acts 15.

I think you are misreading this. The controversy begins at the Jerusalem Council. It cannot be separated from the serious nature.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

I believe Peter separated himself out of habit during a meal event for why Paul reminded him and rebuked him for it.

Since scripture in the O.T. were inspired by the Holy Ghost, what are New Testament scripture then? Did not Jesus say when they speak, they will be led by the Holy Spirit to speak? Then why not the epistles of Paul, Peter, & John? There is no forcing the interpretation there, by Peter's use of the word "also". I understand your point of view if you took the verse by itself, but other scriptures support that application and I see no scripture reproving that application.

To be clear; Saul was of the religious mind when he was persecuting the Jews. Being called Paul now is him not being of the religious mind. The quote you are responding to was to another poster claiming Paul was of that religious mind when I was sharing that he read Romans 7th chapter wrong for that was how Paul was before as under the law and not how he was now set free and no longer walking after the flesh under the law in Romans 8th chapter. I believe that was what that poster was referring to as I had come across another poster whom had deemed that Romans 7th chapter as if that was a present confession of Paul as if he was still Saul.

As the Lord enables me...

When they turn to scripture for discernment with the Lord, trusting Him to be the personal Good Shepherd, they can. The problem nowadays is that believers rely on those who went to college or earn that spot on television to do their work for them. They wind up following them as their good shepherds when they should be proving everything by His words & by Him Whom is the only Good Shepherd they should be following.

Again, misapplication of any scripture can only be done by scripture since scripture cannot go against scripture. That is the only way you & I can learn or be corrected or informed is by this practice, leaning on the Lord to minister as it is on God to cause the increase.

This demonstrates clearly that you are imposing your own beliefs upon the scripture. I don't believe it is intentional, but nevertheless, I have highlighted the areas where you admit you are speculating. You do seem to have the attitude that Biblical scholarship is not necessary. Yet, you proclaim the KJV for what reason? The KJV translators were all learned men, with many Letters. I can agree that one may accurately proclaim the gospel without such higher learning, but I find them to be the exception.

God speed
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
It would be best to show how it was taken out of context by showing proper context.

You posted the verse. It is your responsibility to understand the context.

Here is the scripture starting at verse 32 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6&version=NASB1995

Jesus wasn't speaking about the mentally challenged or babies specifically. He said that only the Father can draw people to Christ. You don't know who those people, known as the elect, are. Neither do I. Romans tells us that hearing is the way to the gospel message. How would a deaf person understand this? How about a baby who has little knowledge of words? These verses are focused on the fact that only God the Father draws people. You could extrapolate that if God wants them to be saved, the disabled, handicapped, mentally challenged and the very young, they will be.

You just can't use this scripture for that.

I am familiar that "babes" is a term used for those adults that are newly born again and just learning His words, but it is the taking Him at His word is what a child can do and what the religious have trouble surrendering from their merits & will power to do.

Once again, that is not what the scripture says. That's what you say. There is a difference.

Scripture is being used as a reproof towards the lie that little children cannot comprehend the seriousness in following Jesus and so they do not preach the gospel to them until they are old enough to be "serious" towards the Lord like a religious adult for when they come to & believe in Him to be saved. I am applying from the scripture used to go beyond the unthinkable and that is towards actual babes & even unborn babes when it is on the Father to draw any one to the Son to reveal the Son to them to be saved. What scripture supports that? What is impossible for man to do, it is possible with God. Scripture has time and again pointed to God Who does the ministry & the increase, so there is no limitation even in Him reaching the unborn child for He knew us before we were even formed in the womb.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

So until you prove that those scripture cannot be applied to why it is NOT on God to cause the increase when it is God Who ministers even in the womb, then why should we be refraining? Because of our "perceived" limited teaching abilities or their limited ability for "understanding" or their lack of maturity towards Jesus Christ? Not when our faith is on God totally for all things in Jesus Christ.

Once again, that is your belief, it is not what the scripture actually says. You are imposing your will on the scriptures instead of letting the scripture teach you.

Psalm 139 is one of my favorites. I'm very active in END ABORTION NOW so this verse has great meaning to me. But it does not say anything about who God will choose for salvation. It just doesn't.

Not when those not mentally challenged, the believers, that are praying for the mentally challenged. Any parent out there that look to their loved ones because of the lie that it is impossible for the mentally challenged to understand just as it is impossible for that parent to reach that mentally challenged to hear & understand to believe in Jesus Christ, are the same as that father praying for his possessed child in Mark 9:23.

**Again, this is your opinion, not what the scripture actually says** Better to let Jesus teach that only God the Father can draw the elect. No one else can pray anyone else into the kingdom. I feel sure that you know this. Clearly you are a kind soul and trying to spread the gospel, but misusing scripture isn't the way to do it.

Just as the Bible does not teach rapture or Trinity by that term, but the support for those terms are in there. When you see that we are nothing in His ministry as it is all on God, then we need to remove the misperceived notion that they cannot be reached by God by praying for them.

No one said anything about not praying for them.

Right. So I will not be surprised when the Lord gathers up the pregnant woman with her unborn child at the rapture, but I shall be joyful.

Whether or not there is going to be a rapture is completely different topic and shouldn't be comingled with others. In any case, it isn't a salvation issue, just a difference of opinion.

In all respect, scripture cannot go against scripture and so for any misapplication, correction for any misapplication can only be done by scripture.

Still requires showing how it was misapplied and then show scripture to prove that misapplication that shows scripture cannot go against scripture.

No one has suggested that scripture can go against scripture. NO ONE AT ALL. If you had used the hermeneutic I provided you would have known where you took a right turn instead of a dead stop.

You have been shown where you misapplied scripture and sadly, you seem bent on justifying your point of view instead of what scripture actually says. This is serious. Lurkers are watching. Unbelievers are watching as well. You are not the Bible and as such, you shouldn't be misusing and maybe even abusing the Word of God. Let the Bible speak for itself.

When you learn the proper way to interpret scripture, feel free to preach it.

I agree but that can also apply towards putting the limitations on God in ministry too.

Every living creature, including the ones being formed in the womb. Will they hear & understand what is being sung or said to them? Only when God ministers. That is why prayer is needed as we are to believe God can do the impossible, especially since He knew us before we were formed in the womb.

So there are scriptures that support my application of His words but I have not seen any scripture that refutes the application of His words.

This is a strange and somewhat convoluted way to teach about babies in the womb. Not all of them will be born to become a Christian. Many will do wretched, disgusting and evil things. If, as the scripture teaches, they are to be saved, they will be. This happened before the foundation of the world. See for yourself:

Ephesians 1:3-11
New American Standard Bible 1995
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

No one put limitations on God. You are the one misusing scripture to teach things that the Bible does not teach. Your posts are self-refuting. Anyone who reads them can read the scriptures for themselves.
 
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