Preaching from the apocrypha

Theophilos

Active member
I'm afraid you just argued in a circle. Again, the Masoretic texts not quoted in the NT as Scripture were either originally attached to one that was (like Jeremiah), or it was part of the canon of the Jews (like Esther). Again, while the Deuterocanonical books are alluded to in the NT: 1) they are not quoted as Scripture; and 2) not all of them are alluded to in the NT. And, again, there are other books the NT directly quotes that are neither from the Masoretic Text nor from the Deuteros. The "OT CANON the ancient Christians used" was the books from the Masoretic Text, not the Deuteros, since: 1) it was not in the canon of the Jews that were laid up in Temple; and 2) they were not in the OT of "ancient Christians" until after the first century.
There are several scripture quotes in the New Testament that are found only in the LXX:

1) Let all God’s angels worship him. Hebrews 1:6, Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

2) According to Luke, Jesus read from the scroll in the synagogue in Nazareth and quotes from the LXX:
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind . . . Luke 4:18, Isaiah 61:1 LXX

3) The apostle met in Jerusalem to discuss gentile converts and quoted this passage from LXX Amos:
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name . . .
Acts 15:17, Amos 9:12 LXX

The modern Hebrew text says nothing about gentiles seeking the Lord:

That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name . . .
Amos 9:12 NKJV

Greek-speaking Jews, such as the Bereans and the Timothy's family, used the LXX as their scriptures and it had a larger canon than that used by the Pharisees in Jerusalem. These scriptures were the original Christian bible and became the basis for the Christian Old Testament. They are the scriptures that Paul specifically praises in this passage:

. . . from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . . . 2 Tim 3:15-16 NKJV
 
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ziapueblo

Active member
I'm afraid you just argued in a circle. Again, the Masoretic texts not quoted in the NT as Scripture were either originally attached to one that was (like Jeremiah), or it was part of the canon of the Jews (like Esther). Again, while the Deuterocanonical books are alluded to in the NT: 1) they are not quoted as Scripture; and 2) not all of them are alluded to in the NT. And, again, there are other books the NT directly quotes that are neither from the Masoretic Text nor from the Deuteros. The "OT CANON the ancient Christians used" was the books from the Masoretic Text, not the Deuteros, since: 1) it was not in the canon of the Jews that were laid up in Temple; and 2) they were not in the OT of "ancient Christians" until after the first century.
The ancient Christians used the Septuagint, especially since Greek was the "lingua franca" of the time. Nobody was walking around speaking Hebrew except for a few. When the New Testament quotes the Old, more that 90% of the time these quotes come from the Septuagint, which the "Deuterocanonical" books are part of. If the Septuagint was good enough for St Paul and the other NT writers, its good enough for me.
 

BornAgainRN

Active member
There are several scripture quotes in the New Testament that are found only in the LXX:

1) Let all God’s angels worship him. Hebrews 1:6, Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

2) According to Luke, Jesus read from the scroll in the synagogue in Nazareth and quotes from the LXX:
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind . . . Luke 4:18, Isaiah 61:1 LXX

3) The apostle met in Jerusalem to discuss gentile converts and quoted this passage from LXX Amos:
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name . . .
Acts 15:17, Amos 9:12 LXX

The modern Hebrew text says nothing about gentiles seeking the Lord:

That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name . . .
Amos 9:12 NKJV

Greek-speaking Jews, such as the Bereans and the Timothy's family, used the LXX as their scriptures and it had a larger canon than that used by the Pharisees in Jerusalem. These scriptures were the original Christian bible and became the basis for the Christian Old Testament. They are the scriptures that Paul specifically praises in this passage:

. . . from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . . . 2 Tim 3:15-16 NKJV
Yes, and all of these are from books from the boundaries of the Hebrew Bible. None from the Deuterocanon.
 

BornAgainRN

Active member
The ancient Christians used the Septuagint, especially since Greek was the "lingua franca" of the time. Nobody was walking around speaking Hebrew except for a few. When the New Testament quotes the Old, more that 90% of the time these quotes come from the Septuagint, which the "Deuterocanonical" books are part of. If the Septuagint was good enough for St Paul and the other NT writers, its good enough for me.
Yes, and when it quotes from the Septuagint, it only quotes books - as Scripture - from the books from the boundaries of the Hebrew Bible. The Deuterocanon was in the Septuagint in the days of the apostle Paul & the NT writers.
 

Theophilos

Active member
Yes, and when it quotes from the Septuagint, it only quotes books - as Scripture - from the books from the boundaries of the Hebrew Bible. The Deuterocanon was in the Septuagint in the days of the apostle Paul & the NT writers.
The New Testament includes quotes from the Old Testament that only survive in the LXX.

How does that reconcile with the idea that the Old Testament based on Hebrew scriptures used by modern Jews is complete?
 
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BornAgainRN

Active member
The New Testament includes quotes from the Old Testament that only survive in the LXX.

How does that reconcile with the idea that the Old Testament based on Hebrew scriptures used by modern Jews is complete?
Because the only books FROM the Septuagint that the NT quotes from as Scripture are from the books from the Hebrew Scriptures. IOW, it does not quote from books OUTSIDE of the boundaries of the Hebrew Scriptures as Scripture, such as Sirach, Wisdom, 1 & 2 Maccabees, the Greek additions of Daniel & Esther, Baruch, Judith, nor Tobit.
 

Theophilos

Active member
Are the books from the modern Hebrew scriptures really complete if the New Testament quotes passages that exist only in the LXX?

Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Zephaniah, Nahum, Ezra, Nehemiah, Obadiah, and Esther are not quoted in the New Testament. Should they be deleted from Christian bibles?
 
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ziapueblo

Active member
Yes, and when it quotes from the Septuagint, it only quotes books - as Scripture - from the books from the boundaries of the Hebrew Bible. The Deuterocanon was in the Septuagint in the days of the apostle Paul & the NT writers.
Whether a book is quoted or not is not the litmus test of whether it is Scripture or not. St Paul quotes texts that are not Scripture. Should they be added to the Scriptures, because he quotes them?
 

BornAgainRN

Active member
Are the books from the modern Hebrew scriptures really complete if the New Testament quotes passages that exist only in the LXX?

Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Zephaniah, Nahum, Ezra, Nehemiah, Obadiah, and Esther are not quoted in the New Testament. Should they be deleted from Christian bibles?
I'm afraid you aren't understanding the argument, which is not that a book is only Scripture if the NT quotes it. Rather, we know that a book is Scripture if the NT quotes it with phrases like "it is written." There are dozens of books that the NT quotes that are in neither Protestant nor Catholic Bibles. That doesn't make them Scripture. But there are other ways we know those books you mentioned that are not quoted in the NT are Scripture, because either they were part of a book that was (like Lamentations originally being a part of Jeremiah, or Nahum being part of the single book of "the 12 minor prophets" of which Hosea, Zechariah, & Malachi were quoted as Scripture in the NT), or it was part of the books of the Hebrew Bible, like Esther. And only the books of the Hebrew Bible, including the ones you listed, were laid up in the Temple. But none of the books from the Deuterocanon were.
 

BornAgainRN

Active member
Whether a book is quoted or not is not the litmus test of whether it is Scripture or not. St Paul quotes texts that are not Scripture. Should they be added to the Scriptures, because he quotes them?
No, because that is not the argument being made. As I mentioned to Theophilos, when the NT quotes a book with a phrase like "it is written," we can be certain that it is quoting it as Scripture. But those that the NT doesn't quote with a phrase like this, we can be certain if it is, if either it was part of a book that the NT does quote as Scripture, or it was part of the Hebrew Bible that was laid up in the Temple. See my more detailed explanation to Theophilos above.
 

Theophilos

Active member
No, because that is not the argument being made. As I mentioned to Theophilos, when the NT quotes a book with a phrase like "it is written," we can be certain that it is quoting it as Scripture. But those that the NT doesn't quote with a phrase like this, we can be certain if it is, if either it was part of a book that the NT does quote as Scripture, or it was part of the Hebrew Bible that was laid up in the Temple. See my more detailed explanation to Theophilos above.
The question from the OP was about preaching from books not found in the modern Hebrew bible.

What did Jesus do?

“And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.”
--Jesus, Mark 11:25 NKJV

Forgive your neighbor the wrong done to you; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven. Sirach 28:2
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
The New Testament includes quotes from the Old Testament that only survive in the LXX.

How does that reconcile with the idea that the Old Testament based on Hebrew scriptures used by modern Jews is complete?
easy
the LXX may be a more accurate translation of the original Hebrew texts than the modern texts.
Inclusion in a version of the LXX does not confer canonicity:
and you know it.
Otherwise your Canon would be eve more bloated than it already is.
 
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Theophilos

Active member
easy
the LXX may be a more accurate translation of the original Hebrew texts than the modern texts.
Inclusion in a version of the LXX does not confer canonicity:
and you know it.
Otherwise your Canon would be eve more bloated than it already is.
Use by the church is the basis of the canon. That is true for both the New Testament and the Old.

As documented in the Book of Acts, the early church included communities of Greek-speaking Jews who continued to the LXX as the basis for their scripture. Only later was the New Testament added.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Use by the church is the basis of the canon. That is true for both the New Testament and the Old.
"Use by the church is the basis of the canon."
Our standards are higher
That is true for both the New Testament and the Old.


why does your Church not have every book ever included in the LXX in your Canon?
As documented in the Book of Acts, the early church included communities of Greek-speaking Jews who continued to the LXX as the basis for their scripture. Only later was the New Testament added.
of course: it was the most popular translation at the time
 

Theophilos

Active member
"Use by the church is the basis of the canon."
Our standards are higher



why does your Church not have every book ever included in the LXX in your Canon?

of course: it was the most popular translation at the time
The Protestant New Testament is the same as those used by Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but New Testament canon did not exist in its current form until about 300 years after the time of the apostles. Who decided which books belong in the New Testament?

The same standard applies to both the New Testament and the Old.
 

Theophilos

Active member
False
Romans 3:2
the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

you still need to answer why not every book in the LXX is in your Canon
Yes, the entire bible came from the Jews. That is true for the New Testament as well as the Old. Jesus and all of the apostles were Jews, and the New Testament is a record of their teachings.

For nearly 1500 years before the Reformation, all Christians used an Old Testament based on the scriptures of Greek-speaking Jews who were among the earliest converts. These were the scriptures of the Greek-speaking Bereans (Acts 17:10-12). These were the scriptures that Greek-speaking Timothy studied as child (2 Tim 3:15-17).
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
Yes, the entire bible came from the Jews. That is true for the New Testament as well as the Old. Jesus and all of the apostles were Jews, and the New Testament is a record of their teachings.
equivocate much?
the OT came from the religious Jews: the NT came from religious Christians

For 1500 years before the Reformation, all Christians used an Old Testament based on the scriptures of Greek-speaking Jews who were among the earliest converts.
FALSE
all Christians used an Old Testament based on the translation of Hebrew scriptures of Greek-speaking Jews
These were the scriptures of the Greek-speaking Bereans (Acts 17:10-12). These were the scriptures that Greek-speaking Timothy studied as child (2 Tim 3:15-17).
Sure: it was the most popular translation of the Hebrew scriptures in the world; why wouldn't a Greek speaking person use it?
and if Timothy was alive in 1800s England: he would have read the KJV

Inclusion in a version of the LXX does not confer canonicity:
and you know it.
 
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Theophilos

Active member
equivocate much?
the OT came from the religious Jews: the NT came from religious Christians


FALSE
all Christians used an Old Testament based on the translation of Hebrew scriptures of Greek-speaking Jews

Sure: it was the most popular translation of the Hebrew scriptures in the world; why wouldn't a Greek speaking person use it?
and if Timothy was alive in 1800s England: he would have read the KJV

Inclusion in a version of the LXX does not confer canonicity:
and you know it.
The first Christians were all Jews. This why the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) was called to resolve whether gentile converts had to convert to Judaism first. Christianity was originally one of many Jewish sects.

Paul still considered himself a Jew:
I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia . . . Acts 22:3
I am a Pharisee, son of Pharisees . . . Acts 23:6

The LXX is not just a translation from the Hebrew. It also indicates the canon of scripture for Greek-speaking Jews who became part of the early church. The LXX was the original Christian bible even before the New Testament was completed. That canon is still the basis of the Old Testament for most Christians.

Both the Greek and Hebrew scriptures come from Jews, but modern Hebrew canon comes from the traditions of the Pharisees who rejected Christ.
 
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