Preaching the Gospel !

ReverendRV

Well-known member
@ReverendRV Could you imagine prequalifying ( it’s impossible unless you are God) people before sharing the gospel to make sure they are elect . Absurd !

And a person can reject the gospel numerous times over several years and appear non elect then become born again later on down the road.
That would make a good Gospel Tract...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You know, there is a tendency to personify grace: but grace is not doing anything, God is! God reconciles, God forgives, God acts. These acts of God are indeed gracious, undeserved, unmerited, but grace is not a wilful entity.

The blood of Christ shed in the course of his obedience is what effaciously removed the barrier of our guilt that caused our enmity. Yes, this was a gracious act, but Christ did it, not grace itself.

God's gracious actions, not Grace's godly actions, overcomes the lordship of sin in man's heart to allow clarity, if but for a moment, in which the imago dei, the God shaped hole within us, identifies again with its creator.

But like in the beginning, when unsullied Adam and Eve had everything good at their disposal, yet were able to choose to disregard these gifts and follow another voice with a different message, we, in that moment of clarity, are able to again go in any direction; we can listen to the more familiar voice and continue to believe what we've always believed, or find the new light more compelling and want, at least, to hear and know more, if not recognize the new truth for what it is and believe! I think Acts 17 in Athens demonstrates this pattern clearly.

Acts 17:32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

Here we see clearly three types of response: abject rejection of what is said; continued interest in what was said and a compelling desire to learn more (which indicates the Spirit illuminating the truth to the point that they, while not outright accepting or rejecting it, are wanting to know and hear more); and those who see the truth and believe at the moment they hear!

There are three effectual actions as well. The gospel is preached! The gospel has convicted those who find value and want to know more! And the gospel has convinced some to believe. The Godhead, through the gospel, has accomplished all three of these things effaciously.

When God acts in our behalf, it is always gracious.


Doug
Here is my Gospel Tract about one of our discussions. Let me know if you want me to take your name out of it...

Causes ~ by Reverend RV

Genesis 50:20 NASB; "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Doug asked if God’s General Call and his Effectual Call are the same thing? I responded by saying they are different but run concurrent in a God blessed Church; this is why some people get Saved but other people don’t. He asked, “If a ‘General Call’ is offered to someone who is not "Effectually Called”, is it a legitimate Calling?” I answered by saying, “It’s legitimate since the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation for even the hardest of hearts; IE Secondary Causation has to thwart the Gospel to keep it from bearing a crop of 30, 60 to a hundred fold every time. ~ This is where we began discussing Primary and Secondary Causation. He asked me if Secondary Causation was Decreed through Primary Causation; IE by God? God Decreed all things which come to pass, but not in a way that effects the Liberty of our Wills. Doug had a hard time agreeing with me, so I took another approach in hopes of making my point…

The Chalcedonian Creed describes the Hypostatic Union of God and Man in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is %100 God and %100 Man without mixing their different Natures in any sort of way. The Will of the ‘Logos of God’ and the Will of the ‘Soul’ of Jesus Christ are in concert with one another, without one dominating the other; God and Man perfectly Willing the same all the time. But if the Will of the Logos of God and of the Soul of Jesus behaved like the Will of Paul's “New Man” and Paul's “Old Man”, then Jesus would be Bipolar; I’m sure you’ll agree. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever lusted after someone? Jesus said it’s Adultery of the Heart. Your Soul doesn’t want to do this, but can you stop if you wanted to? The next time your eyes caress her visage, think of it as your hands fondling her. Since your Soul wants to stop but your Flesh doesn’t, then you’ve proved to yourself that you are doubleminded. ~ These were just two of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you by this Standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you?

God has Good Meaning in all which comes to pass; he is only the Author of Good. ~ For God so loved the world he gave his only Unique Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have Eternal Life. Jesus is the Sinless Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. The Will of God and Man in one person, volunteered to shed his blood to Blot out our Sin by dying on a Cross. He rose from the dead and carried away the Confessed Sins of his people; and was presented alive to God! We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the Risen Savior Jesus Christ, without Works so we can’t claim merit for our Salvation. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and find a local Church that preaches the Biblical Gospel. ~ God is the Primary Cause of Jesus Going to the Cross, and we are the Secondary Cause; he came to Save us. But what of those who go to Hell, can it be said they Caused Jesus to go to the Cross?

Acts 2:23 NIV; This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Where is the gospel mentioned together with election ? Can you quote election / predestination in the same sentence with the gospel ?
I have made my statement as to why I believe Election is part of the Gospel. Also i dont believe they have to be quoted in the same sentence to be Gospel truths. Is that what you believe ?
 

civic

Well-known member
I have made my statement as to why I believe Election is part of the Gospel. Also i dont believe they have to be quoted in the same sentence to be Gospel truths. Is that what you believe ?
Jesus, Paul and the Apostles never mention predestination/election with the gospel.

I wonder why ?

And why would you claim something they did not ?

Look I'm a 5 pointer and I'm sorry to say tulip is not the gospel it falls under systematic theology.

Do you know the difference ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Jesus, Paul and the Apostles never mention predestination/election with the gospel.

I wonder why ?

And why would you claim something they did not ?

Look I'm a 5 pointer and I'm sorry to say tulip is not the gospel it falls under systematic theology.

Do you know the difference ?
I give my reasons why I believe Election of Grace, and Limited atonement , and Predestination are Gospel Doctrines to be believed in this thread. Please read the thread points i have given and as you read them, we will discuss them !
 

civic

Well-known member
I give my reasons why I believe Election of Grace, and Limited atonement , and Predestination are Gospel Doctrines to be believed in this thread. Please read the thread points i have given and as you read them, we will discuss them !
I believe those doctrines as well but nowhere are they included in the gospel which is why you will not quote scripture to support that claim.

I know Gods word and have been studying it daily for over 40 years and I have yet to find the gospel message saying those ideas are included in the gospel. The gospel is simple.

1-All have sinned
2-repent of your sins before God
3-believe Christ died for your sins
4-He was buried
5-He was Resurrected on the 3rd day according to the scriptures
6-If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

That is the gospel one must believe to be saved period.
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
I agree. In my Gospel Tract 'Amazing Grace', I mention several things that are Grace as you mention. The Lordship of Sin; that is clever...

Jesus speaks of us as serving a master or lord. We can't save two masters, we can only have one Lord. So sin/Satan is our Lord before salvation. So much of Scripture defines things as relational, i.e., Father/son, child, brother/sister, master/servant, husband/wife. I think that the concept relationship is crucial to interpreting soteriology.

I'm working on something; how is Enmity thwarted by Grace? Directly or indirectly? Meaning does the attitude of Emnity cease because of Grace being Efficaciously applied to the bad attitude; or because God's Grace is Efficaciously applied to the Fallen Nature, then this Effected Nature applies itself to our Emnity against God?

I look forward to it...


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Jesus speaks of us as serving a master or lord. We can't save two masters, we can only have one Lord. So sin/Satan is our Lord before salvation. So much of Scripture defines things as relational, i.e., Father/son, child, brother/sister, master/servant, husband/wife. I think that the concept relationship is crucial to interpreting soteriology.



I look forward to it...


Doug
Right now I'm thinking that if Enmity is a Trait, our Essence has to be changed by Grace; as opposed to our Trait being exposed by Illumination...
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Here is my Gospel Tract about one of our discussions. Let me know if you want me to take your name out of it...

Causes ~ by Reverend RV

Genesis 50:20 NASB; "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Doug asked if God’s General Call and his Effectual Call are the same thing? I responded by saying they are different but run concurrent in a God blessed Church; this is why some people get Saved but other people don’t. He asked, “If a ‘General Call’ is offered to someone who is not "Effectually Called”, is it a legitimate Calling?” I answered by saying, “It’s legitimate since the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation for even the hardest of hearts; IE Secondary Causation has to thwart the Gospel to keep it from bearing a crop of 30, 60 to a hundred fold every time. ~ This is where we began discussing Primary and Secondary Causation. He asked me if Secondary Causation was Decreed through Primary Causation; IE by God? God Decreed all things which come to pass, but not in a way that effects the Liberty of our Wills. Doug had a hard time agreeing with me, so I took another approach in hopes of making my point…

The Chalcedonian Creed describes the Hypostatic Union of God and Man in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is %100 God and %100 Man without mixing their different Natures in any sort of way. The Will of the ‘Logos of God’ and the Will of the ‘Soul’ of Jesus Christ are in concert with one another, without one dominating the other; God and Man perfectly Willing the same all the time. But if the Will of the Logos of God and of the Soul of Jesus behaved like the Will of Paul's “New Man” and Paul's “Old Man”, then Jesus would be Bipolar; I’m sure you’ll agree. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever lusted after someone? Jesus said it’s Adultery of the Heart. Your Soul doesn’t want to do this, but can you stop if you wanted to? The next time your eyes caress her visage, think of it as your hands fondling her. Since your Soul wants to stop but your Flesh doesn’t, then you’ve proved to yourself that you are doubleminded. ~ These were just two of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you by this Standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you?

God has Good Meaning in all which comes to pass; he is only the Author of Good. ~ For God so loved the world he gave his only Unique Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have Eternal Life. Jesus is the Sinless Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. The Will of God and Man in one person, volunteered to shed his blood to Blot out our Sin by dying on a Cross. He rose from the dead and carried away the Confessed Sins of his people; and was presented alive to God! We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the Risen Savior Jesus Christ, without Works so we can’t claim merit for our Salvation. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and find a local Church that preaches the Biblical Gospel. ~ God is the Primary Cause of Jesus Going to the Cross, and we are the Secondary Cause; he came to Save us. But what of those who go to Hell, can it be said they Caused Jesus to go to the Cross?

Acts 2:23 NIV; This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
I am honored to have been so inspiring! Though I doubt that most would know who "Doug" is, so I'm not sure if that would be a distraction! It's your call! I'm good either way; I'm not the important part of the message.


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I am honored to have been so inspiring! Though I doubt that most would know who "Doug" is, so I'm not sure if that would be a distraction! It's your call! I'm good either way; I'm not the important part of the message.


Doug
I edited one about Bill the Atheist, a Poster on the Atheism Board. Surely it's his Username...
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
The definition I looked at was a genetic disposition, which is what I was going for; something Inherent...

Thus our Essence would need to be dealt with first before our Enmity for God could change...
Okay, I understand.But I don't think "genetic" is a very good term, because, at least to me, it suggests a physical essence of sin. It is not!

What if we looked at it from a relational/positional perspective. The earth is the perfect place for life because of its relative position to the Sun. Life, as we know it, is not possible on Venus (too hot) or Mars (too cold). Relationships are similar, but not in a spatial sense. Children are naturally more susceptible to faith if they are raised in a Christian environment and tend to find Christ earlier and stay faithful longer per Proverbs 22:6. But the longer one is not exposed to such teaching and/or is raised in an ungodly environment, the less likely they are to believe. Statistics show that the largest part of believers (85%) became such between the ages of 4-14.

My point is, that God is "not very far from any one of us" (Acts 17:27), and there is a definite relationship with age and proximity to the gospel and Biblical truth. The "enmity" factor is not as prevalent in those younger and exposed to the gospel, and it grows significantly stronger the older you get and thus is more difficult to overcome the power of sin when the gospel is presented.

I would think that if there is a static principle that enmity is a set factor that acts the same at age 4 as it does at age 90, then the number of 10 year olds becoming believers and 60 year olds would be more similar. Indeed, there is a decided advantage if one is exposed more amply and earlier in life than if not if one is to become a committed believer. The "genetic" approach would not seem to predict what we see in real life. Enmity with God is something that gains strength and prominence in direct relationship to the amount of exposure to the teachings of scripture at an early age, suggesting that nurture as well as nature are pertinent and serve to mitigate the severity and power of "enmity" against God and resistance to the gospel. This, I think, demonstrates that prevenient gracious movement and activity of God that clearly shows that the effects of the sinful nature are not as strong in our early years as it is in layer years, and the experience in later years is strongly affected by consistent exposure to biblical teachings in the early years.


Doug
 

Rockson

Active member
It's not a matter of what mere humans think.
What? It's very important to have clarity on what's being said here so it is important about what people are thinking here. Do you believe YES or NO that I and everyone else has to believe things like irresistible grace like Calvinists teach TO BE SAVED?
The scriptures teach election and there is no way to ignore this significant part of the gospel.
Nobody, nobody, nobody whether they be Calvinistic or Non is saying the Bible subject shouldn't ever be taught. What they teach about election may be different then you but they teach it. But my question is a valid one. Do you believe salvation itself is determined as whether or not one accepts T.U.L.I.P or let me put it more simply....IF I and others don't believe in irresistible grace am I saved? Sorry but if you can't BOLDLY say YES you very much could be then WOW....that certainly does give a point for professional debaters the ones who do it on stage to point out. Calvinists claim generally speaking many of these things they teach aren't salvation issues but look over here at things they actually do say when on the small social media platforms. On the big stage they dial it back but in the small places you get what they really think.
Most Arminians accept election. But they part ways with the the 'how' and 'why'.
Of course they accept the Bible has a teaching about election. They don't believe what a Calvinist believes about it though. But you've tried to move away from the real question here and I suppose to provide cover for the other Calvinist on here which is very extreme. I actually want to believe the best of you that you DON'T believe the Calvinistic teaching on election is a salvation issue but it seems you're just not willing to acknowledge that. In so doing you need to be careful. A person outside your belief system has asked you something very, very, very important and I'd think God would expect you to answer. No offence but if you can't tell me what I have to believe to actually be saved then what meaning do all yours and others religious posts mean anyway?
 

Rockson

Active member
No; his position is Hyper...

Calvinism is not the Gospel; and Unconditional Election is Calvinism...
Thank you Rev. I respect your answer and would never claim ALL Calvinists believes as he does. I can't help but wonder how many do though. And there are extremists in any way of thinking Calvinists and Non-Calvinists alike. Human beings are human beings and their mistakes may not be the same but similar. God Bless.
 

Rockson

Active member
Jesus, Paul and the Apostles never mention predestination/election with the gospel.

I wonder why ?

And why would you claim something they did not ?

Look I'm a 5 pointer and I'm sorry to say tulip is not the gospel it falls under systematic theology.

Do you know the difference ?
While I don't believe exactly what Calvinists teach about T.U.L.I.P. I do believe all Non-Calvinists can put a like on your post. You're at least showing balance on how it should be thought about. Good going.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thank you Rev. I respect your answer and would never claim ALL Calvinists believes as he does. I can't help but wonder how many do though. And there are extremists in any way of thinking Calvinists and Non-Calvinists alike. Human beings are human beings and their mistakes may not be the same but similar. God Bless.
I have a friend on Farcebook who became a Calvinist a couple of years ago; I mention to him often that he needs to focus on the Gospel more than he does. There needs to be a good balance...
 
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