Predestination

Carbon

Well-known member
Every Christian must believe in predestination in one way or another. We can't escape the fact that it is in scripture. Just a few verses.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. John 15:16.

4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 1 Thess 1.

12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, Col 3.

1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, Titus 1.

3 Quotes,
“I believe that nothing happens apart from divine determination and decree. We shall never be able to escape from the doctrine of divine predestination – the doctrine that God has foreordained certain people unto eternal life.” Charles Spurgeon

“God preordained, for His own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.” John Calvin

“We talk about predestination because the Bible talks about predestination. If we desire to build our theology on the Bible, we run head on into this concept. We soon discover that John Calvin did not invent it.” – RC Sproul

And of course the passage many try to distort.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Romans 9.

Does this teach a double predestination?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Curious, would you explain your understanding on double predestination? Thanks.
Well I believe its spiritual logic due to the fact that God is a God of Purpose, and since He clearly predestines some to life eternal Eph 1, Rom 8 His Chosen, then He must predestined the rest to eternal death. For instance when writing about Israels blindness in Rom 11, its noted the election of that nation obtained salvation, but the rest were blinded and that to destruction Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The words were blinded are indicative passive voice, God did the blinding, He was active, they were passive.

Why were they blinded ? I believe Rom 9 gives the answer, they were people who in the purpose of God He had created for the purpose of being vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-22

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes vessels for His predestinated purpose !
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Well I believe its spiritual logic due to the fact that God is a God of Purpose, and since He clearly predestines some to life eternal Eph 1, Rom 8 His Chosen, then He must predestined the rest to eternal death. For instance when writing about Israels blindness in Rom 11, its noted the election of that nation obtained salvation, but the rest were blinded and that to destruction Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The words were blinded are indicative passive voice, God did the blinding, He was active, they were passive.

Why were they blinded ? I believe Rom 9 gives the answer, they were people who in the purpose of God He had created for the purpose of being vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-22

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes vessels for His predestinated purpose !
I agree God has predestined the elect (His chosen) to salvation, and the rest he just passes over. I disagree with those who believe God causes the reprobate to do evil. And those who believe Calvinism teaches such don't understands Calvinism.

The part about blindness is God giving them over to their desires, those of the fallen nature do not desire Christ, by giving them over gives them the opportunity and allows (for lack of another word) to live their desire more freely, He simply lifts His hand of sustaining grace.
They do not come to Christ because they are forced not to, they simple have no desire to. They are at enmity.
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes vessels for His predestinated purpose !
Do you believe those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, are "fitted" by God not regenerating them?
Since, in a sense, everyone born is fitted for destruction until the Holy Spirit regenerates them.
 

Base12

Member
Hi Carbon.

Of course Predestination is Biblical, however you are only presenting half the story. This is not so much your fault as it is the Church and Christians in general. They are 'told' what to believe instead of 'taught'. Thus, Christians simply parrot pre-canned talking points, whether they are True or not.

In order to Truly appreciate Predestination, One must set aside the Dogma, and be willing to accept very uncomfortable Truths.

I will attempt to enlighten...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."


Note the phrase 'Child of Hell', or 'Child of Gehenna' if we use the original Greek.

We all know what a Child is. No Mystery there. But why is Jesus saying that Children come from Hell or Gehenna?

One could dismiss what Jesus said and claim it was a 'figure of speech'. The rabbit hole would thus end there. Everyone goes back to their Safe Space of ignorance.

However, One who wishes to be Illuminated will interpret 'Child of Hell' as LITERAL. In other words, Hell is where we all came from. If One possesses Critical Thinking skills, One will understand that in order to be born from Hell, One had to have be put there to begin with.

Predestination = Reap what One has sown previously.

Understand? This could be a good thing, or bad depending on what was sown and other factors.

Now, let us provide another Witness as to where we came from...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."


And there we have it. The wool that has been pulled over the eyes of Christians for thousands of years.

HELL IS A PARABLE FOR THE WOMB AND WHERE WE ORIGINALLY CAME FROM!

There are plenty of other verses that agree with the above OP. If this is too much for you, I get it. Most folks can not handle what the Bible actually teaches.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Hi Carbon.

Of course Predestination is Biblical, however you are only presenting half the story. This is not so much your fault as it is the Church and Christians in general. They are 'told' what to believe instead of 'taught'. Thus, Christians simply parrot pre-canned talking points, whether they are True or not.

Um, why do you self-servingly ASSUME this?

How do you know how Christians, who you don't even know, have learned things?

In order to Truly appreciate Predestination, One must set aside the Dogma, and be willing to accept very uncomfortable Truths.

I will attempt to enlighten...

Oh, I see... So you want to "tell" us what to believe, instead of us being "taught" it directly from Scripture?

Doesn't that make you a hypocrite, based on what you just said above?

Predestination = Reap what One has sown previously.

So you have to actually REDEFINE terms to make your theology work?
What if we're not okay with that?

HELL IS A PARABLE FOR THE WOMB AND WHERE WE ORIGINALLY CAME FROM!

<Chuckle>
More redefinitions going on...
How many wombs do you know which have fire and worms?

There are plenty of other verses that agree with the above OP. If this is too much for you, I get it. Most folks can not handle what the Bible actually teaches.

... including yourself, obviously.
 

Base12

Member
Um, why do you self-servingly ASSUME this?

How do you know how Christians, who you don't even know, have learned things?
I have been presenting this information for many years on various forums, streaming video servers etc. I have engaged in hundreds of conversations regarding this topic. Ninety-nine percent of the responses are what I call 'Dunce in the classroom' remarks.

One can either choose to appreciate when a Teacher shows up, or One can choose to act arrogant and disrespectful.

Guess how you chose to respond? You may now sit in the corner with the rest of the Unlearned. You failed the test.

Oh well. Class dismissed. Have fun acting like you know it all.

Base12 out.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have been presenting this information for many years on various forums, streaming video servers etc. I have engaged in hundreds of conversations regarding this topic. Ninety-nine percent of the responses are what I call 'Dunce in the classroom' remarks.

Regardless of all your claims, you don't know a thing about me, nor how I came to learn what I know.

One can either choose to appreciate when a Teacher shows up, or One can choose to act arrogant and disrespectful.

Oh wow.... You, the newbie here, are the self-proclaimed "Teacher" here?
What a joke.
EVERYONE who comes here proclaims themselves the "Teacher". And 99.9999% of them have no clue what the Bible actually teaches.

I have many teachers, the best of which is the Holy Spirit.
But if you want to be our "teacher", you have to PROVE yourself first.

Guess how you chose to respond? You may now sit in the corner with the rest of the Unlearned. You failed the test.

Yeah, ignoring your worthless posts is going to be zero loss for me.
I'm sure of that.

Oh well. Class dismissed. Have fun acting like you know it all.

You really need to check your attitude.
Are you trying to be a troll?

I guess you haven't learned that "humility" is a fruit of the Spirit.
The fact that you don't know (or at least practice) this proves you are no "teacher".

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Hi Carbon.

Of course Predestination is Biblical, however you are only presenting half the story. This is not so much your fault as it is the Church and Christians in general. They are 'told' what to believe instead of 'taught'. Thus, Christians simply parrot pre-canned talking points, whether they are True or not.

In order to Truly appreciate Predestination, One must set aside the Dogma, and be willing to accept very uncomfortable Truths.

I will attempt to enlighten...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."


Note the phrase 'Child of Hell', or 'Child of Gehenna' if we use the original Greek.

We all know what a Child is. No Mystery there. But why is Jesus saying that Children come from Hell or Gehenna?

One could dismiss what Jesus said and claim it was a 'figure of speech'. The rabbit hole would thus end there. Everyone goes back to their Safe Space of ignorance.

However, One who wishes to be Illuminated will interpret 'Child of Hell' as LITERAL. In other words, Hell is where we all came from. If One possesses Critical Thinking skills, One will understand that in order to be born from Hell, One had to have be put there to begin with.

Predestination = Reap what One has sown previously.

Understand? This could be a good thing, or bad depending on what was sown and other factors.

Now, let us provide another Witness as to where we came from...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."


And there we have it. The wool that has been pulled over the eyes of Christians for thousands of years.

HELL IS A PARABLE FOR THE WOMB AND WHERE WE ORIGINALLY CAME FROM!

There are plenty of other verses that agree with the above OP. If this is too much for you, I get it. Most folks can not handle what the Bible actually teaches.

Welcome to CARM.

I've read your post twice now. Especially this quote: "Predestination = Reap what One has sown previously."

My Bible says that I was predestined before the foundation of the world. It also says our salvation is not dependent on my works.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)


37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?



Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.



Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,



Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,



1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,



Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanliness, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.



Just another thought, when you post something at CARM, you should lose the insults, sarcasm, and especially name-calling. It won't serve you well, you could get banned or you could just lose credibility.

If you are here just to post divisive material, well... that won't serve you well, either.

If you want to discuss theological matters with other Christians (without rancor) then you are in the right place.
 

civic

Well-known member
I have been presenting this information for many years on various forums, streaming video servers etc. I have engaged in hundreds of conversations regarding this topic. Ninety-nine percent of the responses are what I call 'Dunce in the classroom' remarks.

One can either choose to appreciate when a Teacher shows up, or One can choose to act arrogant and disrespectful.

Guess how you chose to respond? You may now sit in the corner with the rest of the Unlearned. You failed the test.

Oh well. Class dismissed. Have fun acting like you know it all.

Base12 out.
a couple of quick questions.

1- do you attend a physical brick and mortar church on a weekly basis ? yes or no

2- if so what denomination ?

Thank you !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
carbon

I agree God has predestined the elect (His chosen) to salvation, and the rest he just passes over.

You sound like you believe God was passive in reprobation, I believe He was active, He had an active decree to, a positive will to ordain the reprobate to condemnation, He made them for that purpose. Gods making , creating something is His active predetermined will, nothing passive about it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Do you believe those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, are "fitted" by God not regenerating them?
Since, in a sense, everyone born is fitted for destruction until the Holy Spirit regenerates them.
I believe they are fitted by Gods Purpose not to save them, not to show them mercy, which includede not regeneating them since regeneration is the offspring of God showing mercy Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ be blessed! On account of his vast mercy, he has given us new birth. You have been born anew into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. CSB

And no everyone isnt fitted for destruction, some are fitted for mercy. You cannot combine those God created for Mercy, with them God created for Destruction. Sure both Vessels are sinful, but God purposed to show mercy on one sinful group and justice and wrath to the other sinful group. Do you understand ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Ninety-nine percent of the responses are what I call 'Dunce in the classroom' remarks.

Yes, I can fully understand why your remarks would be called that.
All the more reason for nobody to accept you as a "teacher".

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I believe they are fitted by Gods Purpose not to save them, not to show them mercy, which includede not regeneating them since regeneration is the offspring of God showing mercy Titus 3:5
So your saying since God’s purpose is not to save them, therefore, “because of His purpose and choice” hence: are fitted for destruction? If so, I think we agree here.
And no everyone isnt fitted for destruction, some are fitted for mercy. You cannot combine those God created for Mercy, with them God created for Destruction. Sure both Vessels are sinful, but God purposed to show mercy on one sinful group and justice and wrath to the other sinful group. Do you understand ?
Since everyone isn’t fitted for destruction, but only those whom God passes over. Then those vessels of mercy are regenerated unto new life because of God’s choice. Wouldn’t they both come from the same lump of clay?
paul even refers to himself, at one time a child of wrath in Ephesians 2.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So your saying since God’s purpose is not to save them, therefore, “because of His purpose and choice” hence: are fitted for destruction? If so, I think we agree here.

Since everyone isn’t fitted for destruction, but only those whom God passes over. Then those vessels of mercy are regenerated unto new life because of God’s choice. Wouldn’t they both come from the same lump of clay?
paul even refers to himself, at one time a child of wrath in Ephesians 2.
I have given you my view sir.
 

civic

Well-known member
Yes, I can fully understand why your remarks would be called that.
All the more reason for nobody to accept you as a "teacher".

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
He/she avoided answering my question about belonging to a church and if so what denomination . I’m beginning to see why as a “ self “ proclaimed teacher.
 
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