Presbyterians believe complete divine determination

Both of these are accurate, good.

But its not accurate (in our view) to say alternatives do not exist.. alternatives exist they just will not be chosen.
I have argued, in the past, against the conflation of the subjective perception of future objects of choice (options) into an indeterminate reality. In short, the conflation of a subjective perception into a metaphysical reality is what I have argued against. A compatibilist argues that the subjective perception of options is completely compatible with God's sovereignty over all things. The problem is with the indeterminist defining "option" in an indeterminist way and assuming that this is the only way of conceiving of "option," and then saying that the compatibilist denies choices and options. The compatibilist simply says that we make the choices that we do for causal reasons that are compatible with both the sovereignty of God and human responsibility; we hold to both. But the important point is that we don't define the terms in incompatibilist ways. (note that Jonathan Edwards, while defining the terms "choice," "options," etc continuously argues against the coherence of incompatibilist definitions; thus, when he makes his own view clear ("to choose is to prefer," or that a choice is in accord with one's highest preference, etc) he is simply expounding upon the basic nature of reality, namely, that we make choices on the basis of causal reasons.)

Lest the point be missed, when I point to "options," I'm pointing to subjective alternatives (i.e. options) present to the mind before the choice is made, I am arguing to the existence of a subjective reality of perception. And since there is only one person making a choice (law of identity), then only one choice is possible given that the totality of a person is only singular at each causal moment leading up to the choice. The only way to avoid this is to introduce either a violation of the law of identity, where a person is otherwise than himself at a causal moment, or at one point in the causal chain, a completely ontologically arbitrary cause comes about, which is no different than basing choice upon chance.

The counter-argument that God is ontologically arbitrary fails because God is eternal (unlike human beings), thus the comparison between God and man is a category error. The fact that God's nature is not based upon another is because He alone is eternal, and the appeal to preceding conditions or reality (Who made God?) is an irrational thought (contradiction) when considering an eternal being. Unlike God, man has a beginning and is finite. It makes sense to ask questions pertaining to man's finitude and ontological dependence. So yes, because God is eternal, there is no other that determines His existence in any way. Trying to apply God's ultimate eternal existence to finite, ontologically dependent man is again, nothing less that a robust category error. Am I saying that God's existence is equatable with chance? Of course not, and it's impossible to argue that eternal being is built off of chance. I am appealing to eternal ontological rationality, which is diametrically opposed to the finite, ontologically arbitrary view of human choice-making that I'm arguing against. Sure, if one wishes, they can say that God has no reason outside of Himself, and thusly His choices are arbitrary. All that this would achieve is to simply ignore the points that i have already made concerning God's eternal nature and the irrationality of the "who made God" question. Finite man is simply not an ultimate being like God is. God can say "I am that I am." Man cannot say this, and it is exactly this hubris that the Bible judges as sin, when man tries to think of himself in the "I am that I am" category.
 
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I have argued, in the past, against the conflation of the subjective perception of future objects of choice (options) into an indeterminate reality. In short, the conflation of a subjective perception into a metaphysical reality is what I have argued against. A compatibilist argues that the subjective perception of options is completely compatible with God's sovereignty over all things. The problem is with the indeterminist defining "option" in an indeterminist way and assuming that this is the only way of conceiving of "option," and then saying that the compatibilist denies choices and options. The compatibilist simply says that we make the choices that we do for causal reasons that are compatible with both the sovereignty of God and human responsibility; we hold to both. But the important point is that we don't define the terms in incompatibilist ways. (note that Jonathan Edwards, while defining the terms "choice," "options," etc continuously argues against the coherence of incompatibilist definitions; thus, when he makes his own view clear ("to choose is to prefer," or that a choice is in accord with one's highest preference, etc) he is simply expounding upon the basic nature of reality, namely, that we make choices on the basis of causal reasons.)

Lest the point be missed, when I point to "options," I'm pointing to subjective alternatives (i.e. options) present to the mind before the choice is made, I am arguing to the existence of a subjective reality of perception. And since there is only one person making a choice (law of identity), then only one choice is possible given that the totality of a person is only singular at each causal moment leading up to the choice. The only way to avoid this is to introduce either a violation of the law of identity, where a person is otherwise than himself at a causal moment, or at one point in the causal chain, a completely ontologically arbitrary cause comes about, which is no different than basing choice upon chance.

The counter-argument that God is ontologically arbitrary fails because God is eternal (unlike human beings), thus the comparison between God and man is a category error. The fact that God's nature is not based upon another is because He alone is eternal, and the appeal to preceding conditions or reality (Who made God?) is an irrational thought (contradiction) when considering an eternal being. Unlike God, man has a beginning and is finite. It makes sense to ask questions pertaining to man's finitude and ontological dependence. So yes, because God is eternal, there is no other that determines His existence in any way. Trying to apply God's ultimate eternal existence to finite, ontologically dependent man is again, nothing less that a robust category error. Am I saying that God's existence is equatable with chance? Of course not, and it's impossible to argue that eternal being is built off of chance. I am appealing to eternal ontological rationality, which is diametrically opposed to the finite, ontologically arbitrary view of human choice-making that I'm arguing against. Sure, if one wishes, they can say that God has no reason outside of Himself, and thusly His choices are arbitrary. All that this would achieve is to simply ignore the points that i have already made concerning God's eternal nature and the irrationality of the "who made God" question. Finite man is simply not an ultimate being like God is. God can say "I am that I am." Man cannot say this, and it is exactly this hubris that the Bible judges as sin, when man tries to think of himself in the "I am that I am" category.
Yep

However I go so far as to grant God's desires are arbitrary if one defines arbitrary as without reason. But then I think that is the essence of God's declaration I am that "I am".
 
A compatibilist argues that the subjective perception of options is completely compatible with God's sovereignty over all things. The problem is with the indeterminist defining "option" in an indeterminist way and assuming that this is the only way of conceiving of "option," and then saying that the compatibilist denies choices and options. T
op·tion
[ˈäpSH(ə)n]

NOUN
options (plural noun)
  1. a thing that is or may be chosen:




 
op·tion
[ˈäpSH(ə)n]

NOUN
options (plural noun)
  1. a thing that is or may be chosen:


So when I consider whether or not to post again to you tomorrow, my choice, because of my finite perspective, bound by time, is as yet undertermined. I think that this is where indeterminists get all their traction. If all reality revolved around my finite perception, and being ignorant of the future, and if man is the measure, then the future is perspectivally open. This is exactly the problem with modernism and postmodern thought. It begins with the finite "I," and seeks to move forward. And while I could go-to-town on the problems of modernism and postmodernism, I'll simply point out that man is not the measure. And culturally bound dictionaries made by men are not the measure any more than a pagan tribe in Africa can denounce God's revelation, when the missionaries come in to alter the tribe's "common sense." I can agree with a person's subjective perception, bound by time, and ignorant of the future, that future choices are unknown and are as yet undetermined (from a subjective perspective). And from that perspective a "thing may or may not be chosen." But that is as far as I can go. Again, I can think of my future interaction with you. Will I keep engaging? Will I chose not to engage? The answer depends on many factors, like these questions.

-Will fltom engage the issue with some kind of depth?
-Will fltom just go the copy and paste route and ignore what has been written?
-Will I forget to look at carm forums again?
-Will God choose to take me to heaven before checking the forum?
-Again, a near limitless amount of future contingencies from my limited, time-bound perspective play a huge factor in future decision making.

The problem with the appeal to one's subjective perception is that reality does not revolve around me, so I cannot absolutize my finite perspective. In contrast, God is; and He is the measure of reality and meaning. If God determines to have Adam to exist in accord with His design, then that is reality. Right? We can't deny that Adam is real even if God made Adam's arms, legs, torso, head, etc. God is the measure. Adam is Adam precisely because God made him to be Adam. Now, my only point here is that God is the measure of meaning, not that God is in the habit of forming every inhabitant of the earth in the same way He made Adam. God has a design, He makes, and Adam is real.

Do you agree that God is the ultimate measure of reality and meaning? If there is a time to engage a question, now is the time. Upon this question hangs the future of my interaction or non-interaction with you. I have given you the benefit of the doubt here, even though you ignored the context of what you quoted from me, which would have pointed out that I had already addressed your dictionary definition. I hope that you at least try to engage the thoughts that I have taken the time to write. Please, take the time to consider.
 
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So when I consider whether or not to post again to you tomorrow, my choice, because of my finite perspective, bound by time, is as yet undertermined. I think that this is where indeterminists get all their traction. If all reality revolved around my finite perception, and being ignorant of the future, and if man is the measure, then the future is perspectivally open. This is exactly the problem with modernism and postmodern thought. It begins with the finite "I," and seeks to move forward. And while I could go-to-town on the problems of modernism and postmodernism, I'll simply point out that man is not the measure. And culturally bound dictionaries made by men are not the measure any more than a pagan tribe in Africa can denounce God's revelation, when the missionaries come in to alter the tribe's "common sense." I can agree with a person's subjective perception, bound by time, and ignorant of the future, that future choices are unknown and are as yet undetermined (from a subjective perspective). And from that perspective a "thing may or may not be chosen." But that is as far as I can go. Again, I can think of my future interaction with you. Will I keep engaging? Will I chose not to engage? The answer depends on many factors, like these questions.

-Will fltom engage the issue with some kind of depth?
-Will fltom just go the copy and paste route and ignore what has been written?
-Will I forget to look at carm forums again?
-Will God choose to take me to heaven before checking the forum?
-Again, a near limitless amount of future contingencies from my limited, time-bound perspective play a huge factor in future decision making.

The problem with the appeal to one's subjective perception is that reality does not revolve around me, so I cannot absolutize my finite perspective. In contrast, God is; and He is the measure of reality and meaning. If God determines to have Adam to exist in accord with His design, then that is reality. Right? We can't deny that Adam is real even if God made Adam's arms, legs, torso, head, etc. God is the measure. Adam is Adam precisely because God made him to be Adam. Now, my only point here is that God is the measure of meaning, not that God is in the habit of forming every inhabitant of the earth in the same way He made Adam. God has a design, He makes, and Adam is real.

Do you agree that God is the ultimate measure of reality and meaning? If there is a time to engage a question, now is the time. Upon this question hangs the future of my interaction or non-interaction with you. I have given you the benefit of the doubt here, even though you ignored the context of what you quoted from me, which would have pointed out that I had already addressed your dictionary definition. I hope that you at least try to engage the thoughts that I have taken the time to write. Please, take the time to consider.
Can we skip the extraneous diversionary rhetoric and just deal with the definition of the term

You spoke of the term option and the understanding of it

"The problem is with the indeterminist defining "option" in an indeterminist way"

I gave you a standard definition

NOUN
options (plural noun)
  1. a thing that is or may be chosen:
if a thing may not be chosen it is not an option according to the definition

It is theoretical at best
 
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So when I consider whether or not to post again to you tomorrow, my choice, because of my finite perspective, bound by time, is as yet undertermined. I think that this is where indeterminists get all their traction. If all reality revolved around my finite perception, and being ignorant of the future, and if man is the measure, then the future is perspectivally open. This is exactly the problem with modernism and postmodern thought. It begins with the finite "I," and seeks to move forward. And while I could go-to-town on the problems of modernism and postmodernism, I'll simply point out that man is not the measure. And culturally bound dictionaries made by men are not the measure any more than a pagan tribe in Africa can denounce God's revelation, when the missionaries come in to alter the tribe's "common sense." I can agree with a person's subjective perception, bound by time, and ignorant of the future, that future choices are unknown and are as yet undetermined (from a subjective perspective). And from that perspective a "thing may or may not be chosen." But that is as far as I can go. Again, I can think of my future interaction with you. Will I keep engaging? Will I chose not to engage? The answer depends on many factors, like these questions.

-Will fltom engage the issue with some kind of depth?
-Will fltom just go the copy and paste route and ignore what has been written?
-Will I forget to look at carm forums again?
-Will God choose to take me to heaven before checking the forum?
-Again, a near limitless amount of future contingencies from my limited, time-bound perspective play a huge factor in future decision making.

The problem with the appeal to one's subjective perception is that reality does not revolve around me, so I cannot absolutize my finite perspective. In contrast, God is; and He is the measure of reality and meaning. If God determines to have Adam to exist in accord with His design, then that is reality. Right? We can't deny that Adam is real even if God made Adam's arms, legs, torso, head, etc. God is the measure. Adam is Adam precisely because God made him to be Adam. Now, my only point here is that God is the measure of meaning, not that God is in the habit of forming every inhabitant of the earth in the same way He made Adam. God has a design, He makes, and Adam is real.

Do you agree that God is the ultimate measure of reality and meaning? If there is a time to engage a question, now is the time. Upon this question hangs the future of my interaction or non-interaction with you. I have given you the benefit of the doubt here, even though you ignored the context of what you quoted from me, which would have pointed out that I had already addressed your dictionary definition. I hope that you at least try to engage the thoughts that I have taken the time to write. Please, take the time to consider.
You called it. To expect a serious response was expecting to much.
 

Can we skip the extraneous diversionary rhetoric and just deal with the definition of the term

You spoke of the term option and the understanding of it



I gave you a standard definition

NOUN
options (plural noun)
  1. a thing that is or may be chosen:
if a thing may not be chosen it is not an option according to the definition

It is theoretical at best
This definition is not philosophical it is practical.

I see plenty of options to choose from at the grocery store. I agree in Every day language that I have the option of vanilla or strawberry icecream.

We are dealing with the metaphysical reality.

What would you call those things if God revealed to you supernaturally that he determines all things?

I suspect you would still call them options.
 
What would you call those things if God revealed to you supernaturally that he determines all things?

I suspect you would still call them options.

I absolutely would NOT call them options.

There would be nothing variable or alternate under divine determinism.

I would call them "not decreed" and what happens "decreed."
 
I absolutely would NOT call them options.

There would be nothing variable or alternate under divine determinism.

I would call them "not decreed" and what happens "decreed."
Which ones would you call that, when giving the list of "not decreed" to your wife while on the phone in order for her choose a flavor icecream......lol

Mint would be my not decreed item.

I guess while doing a card, trick instead of saying "choose a card" you would say "avoid the not decreed cards and grace the decreed on ?
 
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Which ones would you call that, when giving the list of "not decreed" to your wife while on the phone in order for her choose a flavor icecream......lol

Mint would be my not decreed item.

Shows how deeply true free will is embedded in our thinking that one laughs at the thought of using accurate language about determinism.
 
I don't believe in divine determinism, so I'm not the one that has to worry about laughing at its accurate description.
But you said what you would do if you did believe. I am asking for more specifics.

Which flavors would you call not decreed?
 
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This definition is not philosophical it is practical.

I see plenty of options to choose from at the grocery store. I agree in Every day language that I have the option of vanilla or strawberry icecream.

We are dealing with the metaphysical reality.

What would you call those things if God revealed to you supernaturally that he determines all things?

I suspect you would still call them options.
You suspect wrongly

and it would be contrary to the definition to call them options
 
So if your wife wa to icecream and asks whar are the options as you shop, what would be your answer?

"Honey you have no options. Now Tell me the flavor God has decreed for you".....lol
I have to guess what you are trying to say here but if I were a consistent Calvinist I might

In any case given that view it would be nothing but an illusion of choice not the reality of it
 
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