Preterism and the People of God

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
So, here is one clear problem for those who oppose Partial Preterism. This Partial Preterist holds to all believers are one people of God. And therefore, most of the arguments by the Dispensational side of the faith fall on deaf ears. They need two peoples of God. They need a modern-day Israel. So, let's discuss who Israel really is...

“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it," This passage comes from the Jerusalem Council through Luke. They are quoting an Old Testament prophet... And what are they seeing? They are seeing that Gentiles are also a part of the Kingdom of David... They are part of Israel.

What does Paul say about this?

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Paul is discussing election. His point is that not every Jew is called to be Israel. And in the same conversation, Paul extensively describes Gentiles being grafted in...

Israel is all believers from Jacob to present-day Christians...

So, what does this have to do with this forum? The primary nay-sayers are using a false dichotomy when they attack Partial Preterism... They are looking for Revelation to be fulfilled in modern-day Israel... They need a future temple... They need two peoples of God... They need a 2,000 year break between weeks 69 and 70...

They are wrong... And BTW, every major eschatology agrees with me (Ammil's, Post-mil's, and Historical Pre-mil's)... Only the novel, 200 year-old Dispensationalists disagree...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Take a special look at verse 9...

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it," This passage comes from the Jerusalem Council through Luke. They are quoting an Old Testament prophet... And what are they seeing? They are seeing that Gentiles are also a part of the Kingdom of David... They are part of Israel.

Here, the Tabernacle or more generally, “dwelling”; perhaps, “royal tent.” According to BDAG 928 s.v. σκηνή the word can mean “tent” or “hut,” or more generally “lodging” or “dwelling.” In this verse (a quotation from Amos 9:11) BDAG refers this to David’s ruined kingdom; it is possibly an allusion to a king’s tent (a royal tent) ...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Brought Near by His Blood

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
There is no distinction between Gentile believers and Jewish believers... None... So, Roby has it all wrong from the "git-go"....
The way I see it...clock was stopped, so to speak...rapture is next. Clock restarts as the 7 year tribulation begins.

The Christians have been removed and now God is dealing with Isreal.
I believe the Temple will be rebuilt seeing how it is mentioned in the trib period.
As to the sacrifices....I haven't figured out if they will be useless concerning salvation or a way of demonstrating faith. Or neither.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
The way I see it...clock was stopped, so to speak...rapture is next. Clock restarts as the 7 year tribulation begins.

The Christians have been removed and now God is dealing with Isreal.
I believe the Temple will be rebuilt seeing how it is mentioned in the trib period.
As to the sacrifices....I haven't figured out if they will be useless concerning salvation or a way of demonstrating faith. Or neither.

How do you come up with a clock stopping? How do you ignore all of believing Israel?
Doesn't scripture clearly say that not all of Israel is Israel? Wasn't the wall of division broken down between Jew and Gentile?
Where in scripture does it say there is a gap between week 69 and 70? Isn't this an assumption?

Didn't the Jerusalem Council confirm that Jews and Gentiles are one people of God through faith?

Your whole belief system is faulty from the start... There is national Israel and believing Israel... Believing Israel is a subset of Israel... The promises to Israel are for believing Israel, not the whole National Israel... The Promises have all been fulfilled in Christ...
 

CrowCross

Super Member
How do you come up with a clock stopping? How do you ignore all of believing Israel?
Doesn't scripture clearly say that not all of Israel is Israel? Wasn't the wall of division broken down between Jew and Gentile?
Where in scripture does it say there is a gap between week 69 and 70? Isn't this an assumption?

Didn't the Jerusalem Council confirm that Jews and Gentiles are one people of God through faith?

Your whole belief system is faulty from the start... There is national Israel and believing Israel... Believing Israel is a subset of Israel... The promises to Israel are for believing Israel, not the whole National Israel... The Promises have all been fulfilled in Christ...
Lot there. I haven't been down that road for years.
Something about a decree to rebuild the temple...and Jesus being cut off???...1 week of time left when God deals with Israel.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Lot there. I haven't been down that road for years.
Something about a decree to rebuild the temple...and Jesus being cut off???...1 week of time left when God deals with Israel.

There are assumptions made on both of those thoughts. First the Temple... Based upon your interpretation, a third Temple is required... But no third Temple is ever mentioned in the New Testament, except believers, who are Temples of the Holy Spirit.

Second, Daniel 9:27 is not clearly week 70. That is an assumption made by you to fulfill your separation of 2,000+ years...

To think there was an alternate plan due to the Jewish rejection is to give God little credit in his plan...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Second, Daniel 9:27 is not clearly week 70. That is an assumption made by you to fulfill your separation of 2,000+ years...

To think there was an alternate plan due to the Jewish rejection is to give God little credit in his plan...

Sorry, this was a brain fart in part. Daniel 9:27 is week 70. What I meant to say is that it is an assumption to move and separate week 69 from week 70 by 2000+ years... That week very well could be regarding Messiah being cut off at the halfway point...
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
So, here is one clear problem for those who oppose Partial Preterism. This Partial Preterist holds to all believers are one people of God. And therefore, most of the arguments by the Dispensational side of the faith fall on deaf ears. They need two peoples of God. They need a modern-day Israel. So, let's discuss who Israel really is...

“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it," This passage comes from the Jerusalem Council through Luke. They are quoting an Old Testament prophet... And what are they seeing? They are seeing that Gentiles are also a part of the Kingdom of David... They are part of Israel.

What does Paul say about this?

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Paul is discussing election. His point is that not every Jew is called to be Israel. And in the same conversation, Paul extensively describes Gentiles being grafted in...

Israel is all believers from Jacob to present-day Christians...

So, what does this have to do with this forum? The primary nay-sayers are using a false dichotomy when they attack Partial Preterism... They are looking for Revelation to be fulfilled in modern-day Israel... They need a future temple... They need two peoples of God... They need a 2,000 year break between weeks 69 and 70...

They are wrong... And BTW, every major eschatology agrees with me (Ammil's, Post-mil's, and Historical Pre-mil's)... Only the novel, 200 year-old Dispensationalists disagree...
The problem with citing Paul's words in Romans 9:6 is that he later maintains the ethnic distinctiveness of "Israel" in Romans 11. In other words, why can't it be both? Paul uses "Israel" one way in Romans 9 and he uses it another way in Romans 11. God's program of redemption for ethnic Israel is kept separate from His plan of redemption for humanity in general, and the program of redemption for ethnic Israel is to be fulfilled in the eschaton. This program of redemption happens to also include the possibility of their ultimate salvation, even though its immediate fulfillment is an earthly one; that's the entire point of Paul's closing argument on election in chapter 11. Ethnic Israel gets a second chance at salvation that the rest of humanity doesn't necessarily get by being raised from the dead for the final thousand years of world history.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
The problem with citing Paul's words in Romans 9:6 is that he later maintains the ethnic distinctiveness of "Israel" in Romans 11. In other words, why can't it be both? Paul uses "Israel" one way in Romans 9 and he uses it another way in Romans 11. God's program of redemption for ethnic Israel is kept separate from His plan of redemption for humanity in general, and the program of redemption for ethnic Israel is to be fulfilled in the eschaton. This program of redemption happens to also include the possibility of their ultimate salvation, even though its immediate fulfillment is an earthly one; that's the entire point of Paul's closing argument on election in chapter 11. Ethnic Israel gets a second chance at salvation that the rest of humanity doesn't necessarily get by being raised from the dead for the final thousand years of world history.

No, there is only one way to YHWH, through Jesus Christ... And Context decides who Paul is speaking of. There is National Israel and a subset of National Israel described by me as saved Israel...

Saved Israel is the one people of YHWH. You mention Romans 11. I believe there will be a future move of God to save all of Israel alive at that time...

To assume that all Israelites from all time will be saved is foreign to God's whole plan of salvation... It is foreign to the whole council of God's word... This is another Dispensational screw up that tries to force God's word to fit their paradigm.

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Hebrews 9:27
New King James Version
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
No, there is only one way to YHWH, through Jesus Christ... And Context decides who Paul is speaking of. There is National Israel and a subset of National Israel described by me as saved Israel...

Saved Israel is the one people of YHWH. You mention Romans 11. I believe there will be a future move of God to save all of Israel alive at that time...

To assume that all Israelites from all time will be saved is foreign to God's whole plan of salvation... It is foreign to the whole council of God's word... This is another Dispensational screw up that tries to force God's word to fit their paradigm.

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Hebrews 9:27
New King James Version
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
I don't assume that all Israelites from all time will be saved; but I think it's entirely plausible that 100% of them will be resurrected at Christ's return and that many of them who rejected Him in their previous lives will accept Him then. There's a lot to unpack regarding this idea and it would almost certainly go beyond this particular thread, but I think Zechariah 12:10 speaks to this possibility when it says “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn." That image of grieving for an only son conveys an affectionate longing, not fearful suspicion like we would expect of the Jews if they were having Christ revealed to them at the moment of final judgment.

Also regarding Hebrews 9:27, I don't think that verse can be pressed as literally as many would like to press it. How do we reconcile the fact that many people have, in fact, died twice? Lazarus and everyone else who was raised from the dead in the Bible would presumably have died again, which would violate a woodenly literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27. And there were at least two individuals in the Bible who were taken to heaven without dying at all.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
I don't assume that all Israelites from all time will be saved; but I think it's entirely plausible that 100% of them will be resurrected at Christ's return and that many of them who rejected Him in their previous lives will accept Him then.

Look at the gymnastics you are trying to do to give support to your eschatology...

There's a lot to unpack regarding this idea and it would almost certainly go beyond this particular thread, but I think Zechariah 12:10 speaks to this possibility when it says “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."


Now you seem to try to blame all Jews for Piercing Christ... And somehow you have to explain how every Jew either lives or lived in Jerusalem and/or are descendants of the house of David.

Also regarding Hebrews 9:27, I don't think that verse can be pressed as literally as many would like to press it. How do we reconcile the fact that many people have, in fact, died twice? Lazarus and everyone else who was raised from the dead in the Bible would presumably have died again, which would violate a woodenly literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27. And there were at least two individuals in the Bible who were taken to heaven without dying at all.

No... I pressed it just fine. On the contrary, through your gymnastics, you are making the exceptions the norm...

Can you say Eisegesis...
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Look at the gymnastics you are trying to do to give support to your eschatology...


Now you seem to try to blame all Jews for Piercing Christ... And somehow you have to explain how every Jew either lives or lived in Jerusalem and/or are descendants of the house of David.



No... I pressed it just fine. On the contrary, through your gymnastics, you are making the exceptions the norm...

Can you say Eisegesis...[/i]
Someone saying a post-resurrection salvation is possible? o_O 🤨
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
So, here is one clear problem for those who oppose Partial Preterism. This Partial Preterist holds to all believers are one people of God. And therefore, most of the arguments by the Dispensational side of the faith fall on deaf ears. They need two peoples of God. They need a modern-day Israel. So, let's discuss who Israel really is...

“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it," This passage comes from the Jerusalem Council through Luke. They are quoting an Old Testament prophet... And what are they seeing? They are seeing that Gentiles are also a part of the Kingdom of David... They are part of Israel.

What does Paul say about this?

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Paul is discussing election. His point is that not every Jew is called to be Israel. And in the same conversation, Paul extensively describes Gentiles being grafted in...

Israel is all believers from Jacob to present-day Christians...

So, what does this have to do with this forum? The primary nay-sayers are using a false dichotomy when they attack Partial Preterism... They are looking for Revelation to be fulfilled in modern-day Israel... They need a future temple... They need two peoples of God... They need a 2,000 year break between weeks 69 and 70...

They are wrong... And BTW, every major eschatology agrees with me (Ammil's, Post-mil's, and Historical Pre-mil's)... Only the novel, 200 year-old Dispensationalists disagree...

Colossians 3:12
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
 

RCM

Active member
So, here is one clear problem for those who oppose Partial Preterism. This Partial Preterist holds to all believers are one people of God. And therefore, most of the arguments by the Dispensational side of the faith fall on deaf ears. They need two peoples of God. They need a modern-day Israel. So, let's discuss who Israel really is...

A Literal interpretation of the O.T. points only one way, a restored Israel in the Land

Israel is back in the land

Israel is Jacob (Genesis 32:28)

There are over 172 Biblical Scriptures that declare Israel is Jacob, Isaiah 43:1, "But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!"

In Romans 11:26 Paul uses this same Hebrew parallelism, "and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER will come from ZION, HE WILL REMOVE ungodliness from Jacob."


“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it," This passage comes from the Jerusalem Council through Luke. They are quoting an Old Testament prophet... And what are they seeing? They are seeing that Gentiles are also a part of the Kingdom of David... They are part of Israel.

Acts 15:13-18
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,
17 SO that the rest of MANKIND may seek the LORD, AND ALL the GENTILES WHO are called by MY NAME,'
18 SAYS the LORD, WHO MAKES these things known from long ago.


Your Biblical theology is in error

God is going to keep His O.T. promises to Israel, so that mankind and gentiles will seek Him

There is absolutely nothing in the text that says they become part of Israel

You are misrepresenting the text, when you run out of text, you run out of authority

Israel is the wife of God, the church is the bride of Christ, they both are one people of God (just like the trinity, oneness doesn't mean sameness)

What does Paul say about this?

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Paul is discussing election. His point is that not every Jew is called to be Israel. And in the same conversation, Paul extensively describes Gentiles being grafted in...

You are right in that all jews that have descended from Jacob, do not have Jacob's faith

The Hebrew in Romans 11:16 references 'firstfruit' and 'root' which are reflective of Christ, especially when we have Jesus' discourse in John 15


Israel is all believers from Jacob to present-day Christians...

This is false statement, period

So, what does this have to do with this forum? The primary nay-sayers are using a false dichotomy when they attack Partial Preterism... They are looking for Revelation to be fulfilled in modern-day Israel... They need a future temple... They need two peoples of God... They need a 2,000 year break between weeks 69 and 70...

Modern day Israel and events in the Middle East continue to expose all replacement theology as bankrupt, and will continue to do so

Please show me from history where Daniel 9:27 has taken place?

They are wrong... And BTW, every major eschatology agrees with me (Ammil's, Post-mil's, and Historical Pre-mil's)... Only the novel, 200 year-old Dispensationalists disagree...

Jesus didn't teach replacement theology, neither did Paul, nor John

Genesis 28:15 "Behold, I am with you (Jacob) and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."

Jeremiah 31:31-40
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.
38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."


Luke 1:30-33
30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."


Replacement theology first showed up with Augustine, Israel was gone from the world scene, and in order to make sense of scripture, the church became the new Israel so that God's word could be presented as credible

Replacement theologians attempted to help God, just like Sarah and Hagar and Abraham attempted to help God



RCM
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
A Literal interpretation of the O.T. points only one way, a restored Israel in the Land

Israel is back in the land

Israel is Jacob (Genesis 32:28)

There are over 172 Biblical Scriptures that declare Israel is Jacob, Isaiah 43:1, "But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!"

In Romans 11:26 Paul uses this same Hebrew parallelism, "and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER will come from ZION, HE WILL REMOVE ungodliness from Jacob."


16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Your Biblical theology is in error

God is going to keep His O.T. promises to Israel, so that mankind and gentiles will seek Him

There is absolutely nothing in the text that says they become part of Israel

You are misrepresenting the text, when you run out of text, you run out of authority

Israel is the wife of God, the church is the bride of Christ, they both are one people of God (just like the trinity, oneness doesn't mean sameness)



You are right in that all jews that have descended from Jacob, do not have Jacob's faith

The Hebrew in Romans 11:16 references 'firstfruit' and 'root' which are reflective of Christ, especially when we have Jesus' discourse in John 15




This is false statement, period



Modern day Israel and events in the Middle East continue to expose all replacement theology as bankrupt, and will continue to do so

Please show me from history where Daniel 9:27 has taken place?



Jesus didn't teach replacement theology, neither did Paul, nor John

Genesis 28:15 "Behold, I am with you (Jacob) and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."

Jeremiah 31:31-40
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.
38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."


Luke 1:30-33
30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."


Replacement theology first showed up with Augustine, Israel was gone from the world scene, and in order to make sense of scripture, the church became the new Israel so that God's word could be presented as credible

Replacement theologians attempted to help God, just like Sarah and Hagar and Abraham attempted to help God

RCM

Hello RCM! Welcome to the forum. BTW, I am not a full pret... (for the record)

First, where did I ever say the Church replaced Israel? You are reading that in to my post. I am saying the Church is OT Israel and the post resurrection believers together. Here are some verses to ponder:


11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

It is important to know that we are no longer aliens to the commonwealth of Israel and We are no longer strangers to the covenants thanks to he blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Christ made peace between the believers who descend from Jacob and the believers who are gentile. He created one new man from the Jews and the gentiles.

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

I think this completes my thought. We gentiles are grafted into the fig tree...

You really never explain how gentiles becoming believers doesn't fulfill this passage below. You chose one word and decided to catapult the whole interpretation forward thousands of years. The Elders clearly identified the gentiles joining the ranks of believers as fulfilling this passage.

Acts 15:13-18
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,
17 SO that the rest of MANKIND may seek the LORD, AND ALL the GENTILES WHO are called by MY NAME,'
18 SAYS the LORD, WHO MAKES these things known from long ago.

BTW, I have no doubt that YHWH has special plans for a future group of Jews...
 
Top