Prevenient Grace- Chosen in Him !

civic

Well-known member
Chosen in Him – Prevenient Grace

Chosen and predestined go hand in hand with each other. Why can't people just read the text without bias ? Why not just let the words speak their truth without wearing our Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Evangelical, Heterodox and Cult hats ?

One must change the meaning/definition of the words to suit ones personal beliefs to deny the plain and literal meaning of the passages below. We cannot escape Gods predetermined plan in salvation below for believers. God has chose/elected us prior to our knowledge of Him, prior to our own existence as human beings.

John 15:16
16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Below we were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son prior to our salvation.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

2 Thess 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4-11
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

hope this helps !!!
 
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Septextura

Well-known member
Chosen in Him – Prevenient Grace

Chosen and predestined go hand in hand with each other. Why can't people just read the text without bias ? Why not just let the words speak their truth without wearing our Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Evangelical, Heterodox and Cult hats ?

One must change the meaning/definition of the words to suit ones personal beliefs to deny the plain and literal meaning of the passages below. We cannot escape Gods predetermined plan in salvation below for believers. God has chose/elected us prior to our knowledge of Him, prior to our own existence as human beings.

John 15:16
16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Below we were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son prior to our salvation.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

2 Thess 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4-11
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

hope this helps !!!

All I'm seeing is irresistible grace.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Chosen in Him – Prevenient Grace

Chosen and predestined go hand in hand with each other. Why can't people just read the text without bias ? Why not just let the words speak their truth without wearing our Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Evangelical, Heterodox and Cult hats ?

Lets address some of those verses
One must change the meaning/definition of the words to suit ones personal beliefs to deny the plain and literal meaning of the passages below. We cannot escape Gods predetermined plan in salvation below to believers. God has chose/elected us prior to our knowledge of Him, prior to our own existence as human beings.

John 15:16
16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Read down through chapter 16 or even 17 this refers to his apostles

Look at John 6:70; 15:16, 19

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.



Below we were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son prior to our salvation.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This is connected to verse 28

Rom. 8:28 —KJV
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

It concerns those that loved God and were known by him in past

compare to

Rom. 11:2–5 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

You have the same Author

In the same book

using the same word

in the same phrase

and it refers to men living at the time of Elijah

there is more but space is critical



2 Thess 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This refers to God choosing to save the gentiles through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth

Ephesians 1:4-11
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

hope this helps !!!

That refers to those in Christ - saints

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

those who are the saints - the church - the faithful in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless before God in love

Remember the Jews of that time were not western individualist but members of a collective society

The Arminian might appeal to foreknowledge rather than a corporate view of election

Predestination and election are true doctrines

The issue is what they refer to and how realized



 

Septextura

Well-known member
The audience is those who heard, listen, and believed.

To the same audience:

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 

civic

Well-known member
Lets address some of those verses


Read down through chapter 16 or even 17 this refers to his apostles

Look at John 6:70; 15:16, 19

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.





This is connected to verse 28

Rom. 8:28 —KJV
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

It concerns those that loved God and were known by him in past

compare to

Rom. 11:2–5 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

You have the same Author

In the same book

using the same word

in the same phrase

and it refers to men living at the time of Elijah

there is more but space is critical





This refers to God choosing to save the gentiles through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth



That refers to those in Christ - saints

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

those who are the saints - the church - the faithful in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless before God in love

Remember the Jews of that time were not western individualist but members of a collective society

The Arminian might appeal to foreknowledge rather than a corporate view of election

Predestination and election are true doctrines

The issue is what they refer to and how realized
so can you define chosen , thanks !
 

civic

Well-known member
Strong's Concordance
eklegó: to select
Original Word: ἐκλέγομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eklegó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-leg'-om-ahee)
Definition: to select
Usage: I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.
HELPS Word-studies
1586 eklégomai (from 1537 /ek, "out of" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1586: ἐκλέγω

ἐκλέγω: perfect passive participle ἐκλελεγμένος, once in Luke 9:35 L marginal reading T Tr WH; middle, imperfect ἐξελεγομην (Luke 14:7); 1 aorist ἐξελεξάμην; in Greek writings from Herodotus down; the Sept. for בָּחַר; to pick out, choose; in the N. T. (except Luke 9:35, where the reading is doubtful) always middle, ἐκλέγομαι, to pick or choose out for oneself: τί, Luke 10:42; Luke 14:7; τινα, one from among many (of Jesus choosing his disciples), John 6:70; John 13:18; John 15:16; Acts 1:2; ἀπό τινων, from a number of persons (Sir. 45:16), Luke 6:13: ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, John 15:19; used of choosing one for an office, Acts 6:5; followed by ἐκ τινων, Acts 1:24; to discharge some business, Acts 15:22, 25; ἐν ἡμῖν (others ὑμῖν) ἐξελέξατο ὁ Θεός, followed by the accusative and infinitive denoting the end, God made choice among us i. e. in our ranks, Acts 15:7, where formerly many, misled by the Hebrew בְּ בָּחַר (1 Samuel 16:9; 1 Kings 8:16, etc., and the Sept. of these passages), wrongly regarded ἐν ἡμῖν as the object on which the mind of the chooser was as it were fixed; (Winers Grammar, § 32, 3 a.; Buttmann, 159 (138)). Especially is God said ἐκλέξασθαι those whom he has judged fit to receive his favors and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight: thus of the Israelites, Acts 13:17 (Deuteronomy 14:2 (cf. Deuteronomy 4:37); 2 Macc. 5:19); of Christians, as those whom he has set apart from among the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: Mark 13:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27f; with two accusatives, one of the object, the other of the predicate (Winer's Grammar, § 32, 4 b.), James 2:5; τινα ἐν Χριστῷ, so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits, followed by the accusative with an infinitive denoting the end, Ephesians 1:4. In Luke 9:35 L marginal reading T Tr WH Jesus is called ὁ υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ ἐκλελεγμένος (R G L text ἀγαπητός), as being dear to God beyond all others and exalted by him to the preeminent dignity of Messiah; but see ἐκλεκτός, 1 b.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Strong's Concordance
eklegó: to select
Original Word: ἐκλέγομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eklegó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-leg'-om-ahee)
Definition: to select
Usage: I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.
HELPS Word-studies
1586 eklégomai (from 1537 /ek, "out of" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1586: ἐκλέγω

ἐκλέγω: perfect passive participle ἐκλελεγμένος, once in Luke 9:35 L marginal reading T Tr WH; middle, imperfect ἐξελεγομην (Luke 14:7); 1 aorist ἐξελεξάμην; in Greek writings from Herodotus down; the Sept. for בָּחַר; to pick out, choose; in the N. T. (except Luke 9:35, where the reading is doubtful) always middle, ἐκλέγομαι, to pick or choose out for oneself: τί, Luke 10:42; Luke 14:7; τινα, one from among many (of Jesus choosing his disciples), John 6:70; John 13:18; John 15:16; Acts 1:2; ἀπό τινων, from a number of persons (Sir. 45:16), Luke 6:13: ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, John 15:19; used of choosing one for an office, Acts 6:5; followed by ἐκ τινων, Acts 1:24; to discharge some business, Acts 15:22, 25; ἐν ἡμῖν (others ὑμῖν) ἐξελέξατο ὁ Θεός, followed by the accusative and infinitive denoting the end, God made choice among us i. e. in our ranks, Acts 15:7, where formerly many, misled by the Hebrew בְּ בָּחַר (1 Samuel 16:9; 1 Kings 8:16, etc., and the Sept. of these passages), wrongly regarded ἐν ἡμῖν as the object on which the mind of the chooser was as it were fixed; (Winers Grammar, § 32, 3 a.; Buttmann, 159 (138)). Especially is God said ἐκλέξασθαι those whom he has judged fit to receive his favors and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight: thus of the Israelites, Acts 13:17 (Deuteronomy 14:2 (cf. Deuteronomy 4:37); 2 Macc. 5:19); of Christians, as those whom he has set apart from among the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: Mark 13:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27f; with two accusatives, one of the object, the other of the predicate (Winer's Grammar, § 32, 4 b.), James 2:5; τινα ἐν Χριστῷ, so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits, followed by the accusative with an infinitive denoting the end, Ephesians 1:4. In Luke 9:35 L marginal reading T Tr WH Jesus is called ὁ υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ ἐκλελεγμένος (R G L text ἀγαπητός), as being dear to God beyond all others and exalted by him to the preeminent dignity of Messiah; but see ἐκλεκτός, 1 b.
Pretty much what I already stated

selected or marked for favor or special privilege

elect

The parable of the wedding feast illustrates various categories of the chosen

There was the kings servants

Those originally invited

those who were compelled to enter and did so with the wedding dress
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Chosen in Him – Prevenient Grace

Chosen and predestined go hand in hand with each other. Why can't people just read the text without bias ? Why not just let the words speak their truth without wearing our Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Evangelical, Heterodox and Cult hats ?

One must change the meaning/definition of the words to suit ones personal beliefs to deny the plain and literal meaning of the passages below. We cannot escape Gods predetermined plan in salvation below for believers. God has chose/elected us prior to our knowledge of Him, prior to our own existence as human beings.

John 15:16
16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Below we were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son prior to our salvation.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

2 Thess 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4-11
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

hope this helps !!!
Practically everyone here believes they are Saved by God's prevenient Grace; but not everyone TEACHES what they believe; and skips over it...
 
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PeanutGallery

Well-known member
To the same audience:

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Ministry and gifts to the faithful saints in Christ for the body of Christ.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Ministry and gifts to the faithful saints in Christ for the body of Christ.
Quite right

context rules

1 Cor. 4:1–8 —ESV
Ҧ This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
¶ I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
¶ Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you!”
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Ministry and gifts to the faithful saints in Christ for the body of Christ.

Including faith through grace.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
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York

Member
Chosen in Him – Prevenient Grace

Chosen and predestined go hand in hand with each other. Why can't people just read the text without bias ? Why not just let the words speak their truth without wearing our Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Evangelical, Heterodox and Cult hats ?

One must change the meaning/definition of the words to suit ones personal beliefs to deny the plain and literal meaning of the passages below. We cannot escape Gods predetermined plan in salvation below for believers. God has chose/elected us prior to our knowledge of Him, prior to our own existence as human beings.
Plain and literal. What do you think was made of the words "you must be born again" when heard by the original recipient.
John 15:16
16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you,
Basee on what criteria did he chose? They didn't chose him, fine.
John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me,

What criteria did the father use in deciding who to give Jesus?

John 6:65
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Ditto above
Below we were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son prior to our salvation.
What criteria for predestining this one and not that one? Can I hazard a guess that you don't know.

We know we didn't chose him. But it doesn't follow he chose us

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew,

He foreknew what. Them. Them what?
He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Predestining what to apply to certain people doesn't mean predestined to be one of those people.

Adoption as sons is something applied because you are saved. You would need to show something that can be read as being applied to the saved actually means being saved.


2 Thess 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning
You? The audience are Christians.

Ergo: God chose Christians? What prevents this reading (see, it's not so simple of plain)
 

civic

Well-known member
Plain and literal. What do you think was made of the words "you must be born again" when heard by the original recipient.
Where is "born again " once mentioned in the OP ?

You are confusing this with another thread.
 

civic

Well-known member
Quite right

context rules

1 Cor. 4:1–8 —ESV
Ҧ This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
¶ I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
¶ Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you!”
And what does this have to do with the OP ?

I'm confused ?
 

York

Member
Where is "born again " once mentioned in the OP ?

You are confusing this with another thread.
Your contention 'its all plain and simple' is refuted by Nicodemus' experience. God doesn't necessarily speak in straightforward (or even straight) lines.
 
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