Prevenient grace?

Carbon

Well-known member
Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Prevenient grace? If so, where?
Personally, I do not believe it does.

Becides, what good is Prevenient grace since it is offered outwardly to spiritually dead people?
If it was inwardly (like effectual or, irresistible grace), the why don’t everyone believe? Isn’t everyone offered the same amount?

why does it work with some and not others? Are some more righteous, more intelligent?
is it a gift? If so did God give the gift to everyone? Or just to some?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I don't think it's a great term for the doctrine because it is ambiguous.

Every system believes in some form of "preceding grace" (except for maybe people who deny sin altogether).

The real objection is not "preceding grace" at all, but true libertarian autonomous free will.

So it's best to keep things in focus and not object that a doctrine about grace preceding is the real issue.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I don't think it's a great term for the doctrine because it is ambiguous.
I realize there are three prominent positions on Prevenient grace in Arminianism.
But they all agree God desires to save everyone so He comes before drawing man to make a decision
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I don't think it's a great term for the doctrine because it is ambiguous.

Every system believes in some form of "preceding grace" (except for maybe people who deny sin altogether).

The real objection is not "preceding grace" at all, but true libertarian autonomous free will.

So it's best to keep things in focus and not object that a doctrine about grace preceding is the real issue.
So prove it with scripture.
I don’t think you can, simply because scripture don’t teach it.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I suppose the Gospel isn't full of Grace? The Gospel is preached to every naturally living creature.
Hhmmm, don’t see any scripture support.

Am I suppose to believe in Prevenient grace because your humanistic reasoning says so?
I think not
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I suppose the Gospel isn't full of Grace? The Gospel is preached to every naturally living creature.
But do show me because the gospel is preached to every living thing (which it ain’t) and the gospel is full of grace that it proves Prevenient grace.

if not?

thanks for your opinion
 

Carbon

Well-known member
In what way is what I said "humanistic". I assumed you knew of the Great Commission. Maybe not. Here it is.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
I know the great commission, and it’s not worded the way you presented it, sorry.

but still no scripture proof. I’ll be waiting.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I wish you would spend more time in the Scriptures and forget what others tell you.....

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Would like to provide a exegesis of Luke 4:22? Pay attention to how "gracious" is constructed and how it is used everywhere throughout the Scriptures. It is ALL about Grace.
Sure, I’ll give you an exegesis if you would like.
Do you really believe this teaches Prevenient grace?

if you do maybe you should consider your own words?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
The Gospel is preached to every living creature regardless of their condition or future disposition. This represents preceding Grace in humanity.
Okay, so how does this work in directing and persuading man to make a decision for Christ.

Come on now, if you believe in Prevenient grace prove it with scripture.

the issues with you is you do not like to be wrong, you treat everyone as inferior. You know exactly what I'm talking about with Prevenient grace to salvation, don’t you. As far as the gospel going out into all the world as grace, I agree, of course. Are you trying to confuse the subject because you can’t prove it?
or do you really not know? Maybe study up on the doctrine?
Respectfully
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Maybe you should consider this verse as well....

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
This scripture destroys your doctrine of Prevenient grace. That’s if you support it
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I really was hoping someone would actually at least make an attempt to show in scripture where Prevenient grace is taught.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I really was hoping someone would actually at least make an attempt to show in scripture where Prevenient grace is taught.

There is an embarrassment of riches for verses that support God's grace precedes man's worthiness and brings him to a place of accepting or resisting grace.

Since your presuppositions you bring to the Bible don't allow for that paradigm, you will reject all supporting verses by interpreting the description of potential responses or lack of responses as flattened out to determinism.

For example, you'd have to believe that "resist" is not something actually done by people, but preprogrammed by God. So everything that describes autonomy normally is re-construed as some form of determinism.

As a simple illustration here is one verse (among thousands) that brings out the principle of preceding grace:

35 Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going.
36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them. (Joh 12:35-36 NKJ)

A deterministic rendition of the above would be written as follows:

35 Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. You have been predestined to have the darkness over take you, so you will continue to walk in darkness.
36 "While you have the light, only the predestined can believe in the light and become sons of the Light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them. (Joh 12:35-36 No Bible Ever)

But instead Jesus says that the limited presence of the light is a temporary enablement to believe in it. If that were not true, and Christ was only speaking descriptively and not prescriptively, the presence of the light would be irrelevant to the opportunity to respond to it.

Once this light is gone, the "window of time" has expired to respond to it.

That whole idea is completely contrary to, and incompatible with, determinism.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
There is an embarrassment of riches for verses that support God's grace precedes man's worthiness and brings him to a place of accepting or resisting grace.
I disagree. I’m quite sure there is no place in scripture that teaches God woos and persuades man bringing him to a place that he will accept or reject God’s grace.

I am convinced however, that the only cure for spiritual death is the creation of life in our souls by God. I believe Ephesians 1:1-10 teaches this clearly
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I disagree. I’m quite sure there is no place in scripture that teaches God woos and persuades man bringing him to a place that he will accept or reject God’s grace.

I am convinced however, that the only cure for spiritual death is the creation of life in our souls by God. I believe Ephesians 1:1-10 teaches this clearly
All the Father draws/calls are subsequently saved.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I disagree. I’m quite sure there is no place in scripture that teaches God woos and persuades man bringing him to a place that he will accept or reject God’s grace.

I am convinced however, that the only cure for spiritual death is the creation of life in our souls by God. I believe Ephesians 1:1-10 teaches this clearly

The problem I have is that "prevenient grace" has a VERY SPECIFIC definition in Christian theology, and to reduce it to it's lowest denominator to try to equate it with Irresistible grace seems to deny many of the connotations, as well as making it super-easy to "prove" from the Bible, far easier than trying to prove Arminian prevenient grace from the Bible.
.
(Arminian) Prevenient Grace
(Calvinist) Irresistible Grace
given to everyonegiven only to the elect
puts recipient in a relatively "neutral"
position, where then can choose
either way
draws recipient to salvation
.

I think these are very important differences, and need to be demonstrated from the Bible, more specifically than "some grace was given to people before their decision".
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Since your presuppositions you bring to the Bible don't allow for that paradigm, you will reject all supporting verses by interpreting the description of potential responses or lack of responses as flattened out to determinism.
Well, I desire and intend to agree with what God’s word teaches. Show me where the word teaches man has a choice, it’s in mans hands to decide. If you can show me this, I will humbly change my views.
We’re all human so we all probably to some degree bring our thoughts to the Bible. I always look to see this in myself, it was an unknown, daily practice as an Arminian for years. I am aware this is possible and am on the lookout.

You may not be the best on this forum to try and prove with scripture the doctrine of Prevenient grace. Mainly because you do not agree scripture interprets scripture, therefore you cannot be consistent and put together a solid case. But you know that and have already set the stage, it’s obvious by your reply above. It’s a sneaky way out.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
For example, you'd have to believe that "resist" is not something actually done by people, but preprogrammed by God. So everything that describes autonomy normally is re-construed as some form of determinism.
Dizerner, in your first sentence above your describing a Hyper-Anticalvinist.

I do not believe man is preprogrammed not to believe. I’d appreciate if we keep our discussion Christian.
People are in the position they are in because of the fall and original sin. Not because they are preprogrammed by God. And man is not a law unto himself, he is not self governing. He is spiritually dead and totally unable to help himself as far as salvation.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
As a simple illustration here is one verse (among thousands) that brings out the principle of preceding grace:

35 Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going.
36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them. (Joh 12:35-36 NKJ)

A deterministic rendition of the above would be written as follows:

35 Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. You have been predestined to have the darkness over take you, so you will continue to walk in darkness.
36 "While you have the light, only the predestined can believe in the light and become sons of the Light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them. (Joh 12:35-36 No Bible Ever)

But instead Jesus says that the limited presence of the light is a temporary enablement to believe in it. If that were not true, and Christ was only speaking descriptively and not prescriptively, the presence of the light would be irrelevant to the opportunity to respond to it.

Once this light is gone, the "window of time" has expired to respond to it.

That whole idea is completely contrary to, and incompatible with, determinism.
First, did you notice Jesus never answers their question? Just curious.
But instead Jesus goes right into reproving their stupidity and threatening them that within a little time, his bodily presence will be taken away, and with Him will go all the light of instruction and spiritual direction which He had given them. Therefore He exhorts them to make use of the short time He gave them to be converted and believe in Him.
Then Jesus says:
While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.

How do we become sons of light?
By belief of course. He’s telling them while you have the light, believe that you may become sons of light, - enlightened by the gift of regeneration.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. 2 Cor 3:18.

God will give His church the clear glass of the gospel instead of the vail in the OT, all believers freely by faith contemplate the glorious light of His mercy, truth and power, by which we are made like unto Him, in holiness and the newness of life by the Spirit of regeneration during this life until the time of perfection in everlasting life.
 
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