Prevenient Will?

[ReverendRV]

I had a Thread on the old Forums about "Prevenient Will". When a person agrees that Grace is always the first component of Salvation (IE Grace is prevenient in Arminianism, Calvinism; and even Provisionalism); then no one can be Saved by their own 'Prevenient Free Will', since our Will could at best be the second component of Salvation...

Is there anyone here who would say otherwise?

It was a VERY effective Thread, to the point that only two Posters tried to Buck it. I hope those who agree with me will run with the notion that Christians surreptitiously hold to the unnamed Doctrine of 'Prevenient Will'. Those Christians can't stand that thought, and give up the current debate, but not their true view of Prevenient Will. I hope that over time, this notion will weed out 'Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will' from their beliefs...

This Thread is also a test, to see if anyone even wants to try and challenge it; testing for Cognitive Dissonance. If no one wants to engage because they think it's foolish, shouldn't foolishness easily be exposed? I will count how many times this Thread moves off the front page of this Forum. I'll bump it at least once if needed...

 

[PeanutGallery]

...; then no one can be Saved by their own 'Prevenient Free Will',...

Who says otherwise? We are not saved by our will; God's will is to save those who willingly believe.

 

[ReverendRV]

Who says otherwise? We are not saved by our will; God's will is to save those who willingly believe.

Right on brother!

But there are still a few who debate as if Prevenient Will is a true Doctrine. It used to be worse than now...

 

[ReverendRV]

As I said, I'm BUMPING at least once when the Thread leaves the front page of this Forum. The Thread hasn't reached the second page yet, but it is at the bottom of the first page; close enough...

The Moral of the Story is; we ALL know there is no such thing as Prevenient Will regarding Salvation; though so many argue as if there is. After Grace has made a 'real' difference though? All bets are off; and we have more in common than we think...

Thanks to all who've made the Thread a success; even without one argument against it. .

 

[SovereignGrace]

I had a Thread on the old Forums about "Prevenient Will". When a person agrees that Grace is always the first component of Salvation (IE Grace is prevenient in Arminianism, Calvinism; and even Provisionalism); then no one can be Saved by their own 'Prevenient Free Will', since our Will could at best be the second component of Salvation...

Is there anyone here who would say otherwise?

It was a VERY effective Thread, to the point that only two Posters tried to Buck it. I hope those who agree with me will run with the notion that Christians surreptitiously hold to the unnamed Doctrine of 'Prevenient Will'. Those Christians can't stand that thought, and give up the current debate, but not their true view of Prevenient Will. I hope that over time, this notion will weed out 'Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will' from their beliefs...

This Thread is also a test, to see if anyone even wants to try and challenge it; testing for Cognitive Dissonance. If no one wants to engage because they think it's foolish, shouldn't foolishness easily be exposed? I will count how many times this Thread moves off the front page of this Forum. I'll bump it at least once if needed...

Actually...


Arminianism teaches prevenient grace
Calvinism teach irresistible grace

YUGE difference betwixt the two. YUGE.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I had a Thread on the old Forums about "Prevenient Will". When a person agrees that Grace is always the first component of Salvation (IE Grace is prevenient in Arminianism, Calvinism; and even Provisionalism); then no one can be Saved by their own 'Prevenient Free Will', since our Will could at best be the second component of Salvation...

Is there anyone here who would say otherwise?

It was a VERY effective Thread, to the point that only two Posters tried to Buck it. I hope those who agree with me will run with the notion that Christians surreptitiously hold to the unnamed Doctrine of 'Prevenient Will'. Those Christians can't stand that thought, and give up the current debate, but not their true view of Prevenient Will. I hope that over time, this notion will weed out 'Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will' from their beliefs...

This Thread is also a test, to see if anyone even wants to try and challenge it; testing for Cognitive Dissonance. If no one wants to engage because they think it's foolish, shouldn't foolishness easily be exposed? I will count how many times this Thread moves off the front page of this Forum. I'll bump it at least once if needed...

Can you better define ‘prevenient will’? I googled it and only got prevenient grace links.

 

[ReverendRV]

Actually...


Arminianism teaches prevenient grace
Calvinism teach irresistible grace

YUGE difference betwixt the two. YUGE.

I certainly agree with that; kind of...

Both Prevenient Grace and Irresistible Grace are prevenient, because both are the first Component of Salvation. Both Prevenient Grace and Irresistible Grace are Irresistible, because both thwart Total Depravity against the person's Will. True Arminians believe in Total Depravity, so Grace for them is also Efficacious because Illumination reduces Total Depravity to Nominal Depravity; that Effect is Irresistible. The main difference between Irresistible Grace and Prevenient Grace is how potent are the Effects of each...

 

[SovereignGrace]

I certainly agree with that; kind of...

Both Prevenient Grace and Irresistible Grace are prevenient, because both are the first Component of Salvation. Both Prevenient Grace and Irresistible Grace are Irresistible, because both thwart Total Depravity against the person's Will. True Arminians believe in Total Depravity, so Grace for them is also Efficacious because Illumination reduces Total Depravity to Nominal Depravity; that Effect is Irresistible. The main difference between Irresistible Grace and Prevenient Grace is how potent are the Effects of each...

Prevenient grace in Arminianism doesn’t thwart Total Depravity. It enables the recipient (in this schema) to either 1) accept this grace, or 2) reject this grace. Ppl don’t need prevenient grace to reject Him, they automatically do that in their fallen state.

 

[ReverendRV]

Can you better define ‘prevenient will’? I googled it and only got prevenient grace links.

Prevenient Free Will, as far as I know, is a Doctrine of my own naming; a false doctrine. When we debate with people here, basically they say they can believe on their own. So I started telling them they do not believe the Grace of God comes first, but their Will is the first component of Salvation. So when I gave their belief a name, they hated it, because EVERY Evangelical believes Grace is always first. Labeling it 'Prevenient Will' turns the light on for them because they realized they CANNOT have 'two' prevenient components regarding Salvation..

 

[ReverendRV]

Prevenient grace in Arminianism doesn’t thwart Total Depravity. It enables the recipient (in this schema) to either 1) accept this grace, or 2) reject this grace. Ppl don’t need prevenient grace to reject Him, they automatically do that in their fallen state.

It does thwart Total Depravity for 'Classical Arminianism'. The Society of Evangelical Arminians says that Total Depravity is like a sheet that Totally covers people, IE they're Veiled. Prevenient Grace pulls the veil back enough for the person to no longer be 'Totaly' Depraved, and their new status is one of being Nominally Depraved. This Grace trully qualifies as Efficacious Grace which trespasses the Will of a Sinner without their permission...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Efficacious: having the power to produce a desired effect


If the desired effect is for God to save someone, and He doesn’t end up saving them by their rejecting Prevenient Grace, then, by its own definition, its not efficacious. It failed to save the one God intended to save. Thats not efficacious by a long shot.

 

[ReverendRV]

Prevenient grace in Arminianism doesn’t thwart Total Depravity. It enables the recipient (in this schema) to either 1) accept this grace, or 2) reject this grace. Ppl don’t need prevenient grace to reject Him, they automatically do that in their fallen state.

A former Poster here named JStone is the one who said that Prevenient Grace turns people into Pelagians; think about that! It was the notion which started me in this direction...

Might you say that Arminians are Pelagians wearing Reformed clothing? When Prevenient Grace goes to 'every' person, doesn't it mean that at one time in everyone's life, everyone falls into the Pelagian Category? That is, if Prevenient Grace is true...

 

[SovereignGrace]

A former Poster here named JStone is the one who said that Prevenient Grace turns people into Pelagians; think about that! It was the notion which started me in this direction...

Might you say that Arminians are Pelagians wearing Reformed clothing? When Prevenient Grace goes to 'every' person, doesn't it mean that at one time in everyone's life, everyone falls into the Pelagian Category? That is, if Prevenient Grace is true...

Look to Dr. Leighton Flowers and you will a full-blown Pelagianist. He denies the necessity of the Spirit’s interaction in the gospel presentation to the lost. Just give them the gospel and let them decide, no need for the Spirit to get in the way of their free will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

A former Poster here named JStone is the one who said that Prevenient Grace turns people into Pelagians; think about that! It was the notion which started me in this direction...

Might you say that Arminians are Pelagians wearing Reformed clothing? When Prevenient Grace goes to 'every' person, doesn't it mean that at one time in everyone's life, everyone falls into the Pelagian Category? That is, if Prevenient Grace is true...

Prevenient Grace teaches(if I understand it correctly) that this grace enables the sinner to choose. It teaches life is given for them to decide which way to go. If they reject it, they go back to being dead.

Is it against rules to post YouTube videos in the open forums?

 

[ReverendRV]

Efficacious: having the power to produce a desired effect


If the desired effect is for God to save someone, and He doesn’t end up saving them by their rejecting Prevenient Grace, then, by its own definition, its not efficacious. It failed to save the one God intended to save. Thats not efficacious by a long shot.

By definition, Prevenient Grace is Efficacious because it makes a 'real' difference in people; but Prevenient Grace is not Biblical. I'm talking about definitions. Prevenient Grace Illuminates, and by definition that is Efficacious...

Stop and just listen for a minute instead of arguing; I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. I'm using their definition against them; not using their 'Truth' against them. My approach has always been to take what someone believes and use it against them...

 

[SovereignGrace]

By definition, Prevenient Grace is Efficacious because it makes a 'real' difference in people; but Prevenient Grace is not Biblical. I'm talking about definitions. Prevenient Grace Illuminates, and by definition that is Efficacious...

Stop and just listen for a minute instead of arguing; I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. I'm using their definition against them; not their 'Truth' against them. My approach has always been to take what someone believes and use it against them...

But Prevenient Grace only does so much, it does not guarantee the salvation of everyone it is given to. To many, if this schema is right, they still die lost after being Preveniently Graced(I know that’s not a word but sure sounds purty). It does not have the desired effect, which is what the very definition of efficacious means. It’s not truly effectual until they do their part.

Glad to hear you’re a five pointer.

 

[ReverendRV]

Look to Dr. Leighton Flowers and you will a full-blown Pelagianist. He denies the necessity of the Spirit’s interaction in the gospel presentation to the lost. Just give them the gospel and let them decide, no need for the Spirit to get in the way of their free will.

He is a tough nut to crack. I've used my notion of Prevenient Will on him and the best I could do was to get him to say the Gospel is all the Grace of of God we need. If he stands on one side of the 'Semi-Pelagianism / Pelagianism' fence with one boot propped up, he has at least one Efficacious Grace; because the Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword. It cuts him whether he'd ever admit it or not...

 

[ReverendRV]

But Prevenient Grace only does so much, it does not guarantee the salvation of everyone it is given to. To many, if this schema is right, they still die lost after being Preveniently Graced(I know that’s not a word but sure sounds putty). It does not have the desired effect, which is what the very definition of efficacious means. It’s not truly effectual until they do their part.

Glad to hear you’re a five pointer.

Thanks. Just think about it for now; I know this is hard for Calvinists...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is it against the rules to post YouTube videos on the open forums?

 

[ReverendRV]

Is it against the rules to post YouTube videos on the open forums?

Probably...

I've done it recently though...