Prevenient Will?

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Is it against the rules to post YouTube videos on the open forums?
I just watched it, and I totally agree. Professor Flowers is the closest person I know of who wants to teach Prevenient Free Will; but can't do that because he would for sure be outed as a Pelagian...

The lesson of this Thread is that naming their teaching Salvation by 'Prevenient Will', this tactic causes them a WHOLE lot of problems...

I want Calvinists like you to run with this; it is truly an unbeatable Apology for all who are Born Again. ~ You can tell by realizing that the regular Posters here, will not touch the Thread with a Ten-Foot pole; right?
 
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Kampioen

Active member
I had a Thread on the old Forums about "Prevenient Will". When a person agrees that Grace is always the first component of Salvation (IE Grace is prevenient in Arminianism, Calvinism; and even Provisionalism); then no one can be Saved by their own 'Prevenient Free Will', since our Will could at best be the second component of Salvation...

Is there anyone here who would say otherwise?

It was a VERY effective Thread, to the point that only two Posters tried to Buck it. I hope those who agree with me will run with the notion that Christians surreptitiously hold to the unnamed Doctrine of 'Prevenient Will'. Those Christians can't stand that thought, and give up the current debate, but not their true view of Prevenient Will. I hope that over time, this notion will weed out 'Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will' from their beliefs...

This Thread is also a test, to see if anyone even wants to try and challenge it; testing for Cognitive Dissonance. If no one wants to engage because they think it's foolish, shouldn't foolishness easily be exposed? I will count how many times this Thread moves off the front page of this Forum. I'll bump it at least once if needed...
I do believe in Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Will to me means Prevenient Grace preceding and creating a Libertarian will to get saved.

I see Libertarian will as neither random nor predetermined. However Libertarian will is predetermined by God as a sort of semi-Molinism.

To me God Himself has Libertarian will ie could substantively have decided to create the universe or not. The alternatives are God is either random/arbitrary or predetermined.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I do believe in Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Will to me means Prevenient Grace preceding and creating a Libertarian will to get saved.

I see Libertarian will as neither random nor predetermined. However Libertarian will is predetermined by God as a sort of semi-Molinism.

To me God Himself has Libertarian will ie could substantively have decided to create the universe or not. The alternatives are God is either random/arbitrary or predetermined.
Thanks for responding. As far as Free Will goes regarding us, it can never come until Grace prevenes even the Will; or we're Saved by our very own Prevenient Will, not by God's Grace operating first. The dilemma is that we can Logically only have one prevening aspect of Salvation; so choose this day which you will follow; but as for me, I will choose to accept that the Will can never go before the Grace of God. Now Temporally speaking, they both can be prevenient if they happen at the same time; right?

But no Evangelical ever wants to be 'outed' as believing they're Saved by their Prevenient Will...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I do believe in Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Will to me means Prevenient Grace preceding and creating a Libertarian will to get saved.
Let me say this; your belief is great! That's essentially what Calvinists, Arminians, Provisionalists believe. Calvinism calls the effect of Grace Regeneration, Arminians call the effect of Grace Enlightenment; and when pushed, even Traditionalists will include the effect of a particular Grace they accept as legitimate, as meaningful toward their Salvation as a first Cause...

So what I say about your paragraph is, "Great! After God's Grace makes a meaningful difference for you, then all bets are off; IE after Grace, we are Totally Able!". ~ Really our differences boil down to 'what we want to name the effect of God's prevening Grace'. Before Grace, our Will is Totally Unable because it has to 'wait' on Grace to make a 'real' difference. But once Grace appears in our life, the Will no longer has to wait...
 

Kampioen

Active member
Thanks for responding. As far as Free Will goes regarding us, it can never come until Grace prevenes even the Will; or we're Saved by our very own Prevenient Will, not by God's Grace operating first. The dilemma is that we can Logically only have one prevening aspect of Salvation; so choose this day which you will follow; but as for me, I will choose to accept that the Will can never go before the Grace of God. Now Temporally speaking, they both can be prevenient if they happen at the same time; right?

But no Evangelical ever wants to be 'outed' as believing they're Saved by their Prevenient Will...

Thanks for responding. As far as Free Will goes regarding us, it can never come until Grace prevenes even the Will; or we're Saved by our very own Prevenient Will, not by God's Grace operating first.
But we do have libertarian free will, just not that grace was not necessary first as you say.
The dilemma is that we can Logically only have one prevening aspect of Salvation; so choose this day which you will follow; but as for me, I will choose to accept that the Will can never go before the Grace of God.
That is correct as per above.
Now Temporally speaking, they both can be prevenient if they happen at the same time; right?

But no Evangelical ever wants to be 'outed' as believing they're Saved by their Prevenient Will...
That is because Evangelicals don't want to de-emphasize that it was God's idea/glory when they say they made the libertarian choice to be saved.

But libertarian free will for us nevertheless created in us by God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But we do have libertarian free will, just not that grace was not necessary first as you say.

That is correct as per above.

That is because Evangelicals don't want to de-emphasize that it was God's idea/glory when they say they made the libertarian choice to be saved.

But libertarian free will for us nevertheless created in us by God.
Fair enough; I agree for the most part. The 2nd LBCF says that the Liberty of the Will is established [for the Calvinist too]...

We almost have everything in common, but there is a history of the fight that won't let us all call an in-house Truce; and team up to go out for the increase of God's Kingdom and his Glory...
 
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Kampioen

Active member
Let me say this; your belief is great! That's essentially what Calvinists, Arminians, Provisionalists believe. Calvinism calls the effect of Grace Regeneration, Arminians call the effect of Grace Enlightenment; and when pushed, even Traditionalists will include the effect of a particular Grace they accept as legitimate, as meaningful toward their Salvation as a first Cause...

So what I say about your paragraph is, "Great! After God's Grace makes a meaningful difference for you, then all bets are off; IE after Grace, we are Totally Able!". ~ Really our differences boil down to 'what we want to name the effect of God's prevening Grace'. Before Grace, our Will is Totally Unable because it has to 'wait' on Grace to make a 'real' difference.
But once Grace appears in our life, the Will no longer has to wait...
Yes. And as far as that will is concerned:

Calvinistic freewill is basically determined by a previous "feel-like" domino, giving us a sense of free will and guilt along with predetermination.

Libertarian freewill is an actual contra causal choice ability created by God, neither random nor uncondtionally predetermined but a third type, like I believe God has except for sin.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Yes. And as far as that will is concerned:

Calvinistic freewill is basically determined by a previous "feel-like" domino, giving us a sense of free will and guilt along with predetermination.

Libertarian freewill is an actual contra causal choice ability created by God, neither random nor uncondtionally predetermined but a third type, like I believe God has except for sin.
Hmmm...

If God has Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will, which is not random nor is it unconditionally predetermined by another type of existing Will; how could God's Foreknowledge that you would trust in Christ be THE reason he Elected you unto Salvation? If Foreknowledge is the reason for your Election, how is the Will of God not Unconditionally Predetermined by you?

If God does have Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will, doesn't Election have to be Unconditional; or else you've Conditioned it?

I smell a dilemma, I don't know if it's your dilemma or not though; but it belongs to someone...
 
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