Pro-choice

[BMS]

Precisely the point put to me, that is the lie, "for you it's all about location". Location is not so important as development and the ability to survive ex utero. If you think that any foetus delivered at 14 weeks can life, then you are insane.

Neither, which is my point. Your attempt at Godwinism fails again. Do you people only have three arguments? You keep reprising the same carp time after time, ignoring the fact that they all crashed and burned decades ago.

The 14 week limit is not based on survivability. Your view judging people's sanity is based on you not understanding the simple explanations put to you.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Not for me to say

Isn't it? Then why do you so consistently say it?

but it is for Temujin to say.

Oh, is it? Then I guess we should ask him.

Hmmn interesting

It is, indeed, interesting that you are saying that it is not for you to say something you consistently say.

 

[BMS]

For me, to qualify as a person, a foetus must be sufficiently developed to live out side the womb and be cared for, if necessary, by someone other than the mother.

You were a foetus and you are a person.
Married bachelor and transwoman.
An ideology of oxymorons and contradictions

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Just like transwoman.

Wrong, as you've been instructed countless times.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You were a foetus and you are a person.

Which neither shows or even implies that he was a person when he was a fetus.

 

[BMS]

Which neither shows or even implies that he was a person when he was a fetus.

It does. It proves it

 

[BMS]

Wrong, as you've been instructed countless times.

Your baseless denial has been rejected many times. The reason is a man who calls himself a transwoman is a man. That is the reason and not that you merely say otherwise.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

It does. It proves it

Nope.

Your baseless denial has been rejected many times. The reason is a man who calls himself a transwoman is a man. That is the reason and not that you merely say otherwise.

A transwoman is a woman.

 

[Temujin]

You were a foetus and you are a person.

Your own language betrays you. I was not a person when I was a foetus and I won't be a person when I am a corpse. During the period when I am born and alive, I am a person. It really isn't difficult.

 

[Temujin]

Excuse me. I was talking about killing the unborn human being, using dehumanising criteria, and you say killing the unborn human being is affirming the human person.
Married bachelors and transwomen?

Excuse me, but I was asked for my rationale for when a foetus becomes a person. Once again, you criticise someone without considering what they are actually saying. It's almost as if you have a closed mind.

 

[Temujin]

The 14 week limit is not based on survivability. Your view judging people's sanity is based on you not understanding the simple explanations put to you.

Once again, you fail to read my post in context. I was talking about the point at which a foetus can survive when you jump in with "14 weeks". My judgement of people's sanity is based on their ability to cope with what is actually being said to them rather than making up a fantasy version to fit their prepared arguments. You do this so consistently that it has become ingrained. You dream up something you want to say, and just say it in response to any post, whether or not it has any relevance. I suppose that I shouldn't expect any analytic ability or consistency, as if you had that you wouldn't hold the views you do.

 

[Andreas]

Abortion is not murder. Nobody is "pro-abortion". Most people are pro-choice.

Saying abortion is not murder is out of date. Murder is an accurate word to describe the taking of human life on purpose. We know that the unborn baby is human and it's brain and heart development occurs quickly and early. "Abortion is not murder" is just empty rhetoric and behind the times in our understanding of who the baby is inside the womb. It's time for you to step out of the stone age in your understanding of biology and fetal development and accept what we know as true.

Pro-choice is a clever slogan but inaccurate. The baby has no choice and often young mothers are pressured into abortions, only to carry deep regret and worse their entire lives. Not to mention the Demoncratic Party that forces Pro-Life tax payers to fund Planned Parenthood.

The Mother/Baby relationship is unique. I hear the so called "pro-choice" people (when they are not busy mandating Covid vaccines) say "my body, my choice", but this is not accurate because in terms of biology, the baby is not the mothers body, but his/her own unique human body/individual. That the baby is inside the mother causes people who are illiterate when it comes to science to say dumb things like "an abortion is like removing a tumor".

Most pro-choice people are asleep to the horrors of the abortion industry. It is the American Holocaust.

 

[Whateverman]

Saying abortion is not murder is out of date. Murder is an accurate word to describe the taking of human life on purpose.

Then war and capital punishment are murder?

Nope.

You can claim the usage of the word is out of date, but the reality is that you're simply trying to redefine it. The word YOU use does not apply to abortion today (in places where abortion is legal), and that is a literal objective fact.

 

[Temujin]

Saying abortion is not murder is out of date. Murder is an accurate word to describe the taking of human life on purpose.

Nonsense. There are many words for the taking of human life on purpose that are not murder. Lawful execution, warfare and self-defence spring immediately to mind.

We know that the unborn baby is human and it's brain and heart development occurs quickly and early.

No-one disputes that the foetus is human.
What is disputed is that it should be regarded as a full-blown human being, a person, particularly in the earliest stages of pregnancy when the vast majority of abortions take place.

"Abortion is not murder" is just empty rhetoric and behind the times in our understanding of who the baby is inside the womb.

On the contrary. "Abortion is murder" is just empty rhetoric displaying lamentable understanding of both abortion and murder.

It's time for you to step out of the stone age in your understanding of biology and fetal development and accept what we know as true.

What we know is true is that the foetus has no chance of surviving ex utero before 20 weeks, and very little chance before 25 weeks. We know that there is no sentience or awareness in a similar time frame. Nothing that we know now justifies telling a woman what she can and cannot do regarding her own reproductive health.

Pro-choice is a clever slogan but inaccurate. The baby has no choice and often young mothers are pressured into abortions, only to carry deep regret and worse their entire lives. Not to mention the Demoncratic Party that forces Pro-Life tax payers to fund Planned Parenthood.

The foetus doesn't get a choice because it isn't a person. The person is the mother. You want to remove her choices from her. In civilised countries all healthcare, including abortions, is paid for through taxation. Why should your scruples be heeded? You don't fight for pacifists to be excluded from paying for defence.

The Mother/Baby relationship is unique. I hear the so called "pro-choice" people (when they are not busy mandating Covid vaccines) say "my body, my choice", but this is not accurate because in terms of biology, the baby is not the mothers body, but his/her own unique human body/individual. That the baby is inside the mother causes people who are illiterate when it comes to science to say dumb things like "an abortion is like removing a tumor".

The mother/baby relationship is indeed unique, but what we are talking about here is the mother foetus relationship, which is essentially parasitic in nature. It is also very one-sided, since only one party has any concept of being in a relationship at all. I've never seen an abortion being described as like removing a tumour. I suspect you made that up. A better analogy would be an amputation. Never a good thing, resulting in a sense of loss, but better than the alternative.

Most pro-choice people are asleep to the horrors of the abortion industry. It is the American Holocaust.

Some pro-life people talk hyperbollocks.

 

[Andreas]

Then war and capital punishment are murder?

Nope.

You can claim the usage of the word is out of date, but the reality is that you're simply trying to redefine it. The word YOU use does not apply to abortion today (in places where abortion is legal), and that is a literal objective fact.

Not redefining it, but educating Americans on the value of the preborn to accept what is self-evident: Preborn humans in the womb are human and therefore need to be given human rights as legal persons. The legal system in the past was used to deny slaves or others full rights based on their status as full persons or something less. Slaves could be abused or even murdered but the legal system didn't consider it abuse or murder.

I understand that the law can legalize moral evil, and legal language can deny the technical use of words like "murder". But killing babies in the womb is evil even if your moral compass is broken and you choose to parse legal language in order to deny others basic human rights.

This is why so many pro-life Americans are fighting our abortion laws. The laws are morally evil and the preborn must be given their full legal rights as human beings made in the image of God.

To deny their rights is arbitrary and absurd. A preborn baby a day before he/she is born is the same person the day after he/she is born. To give human rights to an individual based on whether he/she is inside the womb or 3 inches outside the womb is an absurd and arbitrary measure of ones humanity.

That abortion is murder is the reason why pro-life people want to make abortion illegal in the first place. This is the motivator and it is completely consistent with being pro-life. "Pro-life" is an accurate and consistent name for our movement. "Pro-choice" is a clever slogan that attempts to refocus the argument, but is inaccurate and inconsistent because it denies choice to the preborn baby, sometimes to the father, and often the young mother is pressured against her moral judgment by "pro-choice" family and friends. Often abortion initiates an emotional pain that will last a lifetime. Of course, if you labeled yourself as "pro-death", while accurate and consistent with your position, it would force you and others to face your own evil heart and truth is not what this is about.

 

[BMS]

Your own language betrays you. I was not a person when I was a foetus and I won't be a person when I am a corpse. During the period when I am born and alive, I am a person. It really isn't difficult.

Your own language betrays you YOU were that foetus and YOU are that person. Its you. It would have been YOU aborted and not some entity called a fetus.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Saying abortion is not murder is out of date.

No, it's not.

Murder is an accurate word to describe the taking of human life on purpose.

Murder is an accurate word to describe the illegal taking of the life of a human being/person.

We know that the unborn baby is human and it's brain and heart development occurs quickly and early. "Abortion is not murder" is just empty rhetoric and behind the times in our understanding of who the baby is inside the womb. It's time for you to step out of the stone age in your understanding of biology and fetal development and accept what we know as true.

'Abortion is not murder' is simply fact. It is time for you to step out of the stone age in your understanding of the English language and the law and accept what we know as true.

Pro-choice is a clever slogan but inaccurate. The baby has no choice and often young mothers are pressured into abortions, only to carry deep regret and worse their entire lives.

Pro-choice is an accurate slogan; the woman has the choice whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.

Not to mention the Demoncratic Party that forces Pro-Life tax payers to fund Planned Parenthood.

Not interested in childishness like this.

The Mother/Baby relationship is unique. I hear the so called "pro-choice" people (when they are not busy mandating Covid vaccines) say "my body, my choice", but this is not accurate because in terms of biology, the baby is not the mothers body, but his/her own unique human body/individual. That the baby is inside the mother causes people who are illiterate when it comes to science to say dumb things like "an abortion is like removing a tumor".

That the fetus is wholly inside of and dependent upon the woman means she has the right to terminate it.

Science is not on your side; this is not a scientific issue.

Most pro-choice people are asleep to the horrors of the abortion industry. It is the American Holocaust.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

 

[BMS]

Excuse me, but I was asked for my rationale for when a foetus becomes a person. Once again, you criticise someone without considering what they are actually saying. It's almost as if you have a closed mind.

not in the post you have responded to. Killing the unborn human being is still killing the unborn human whether you class them as person or not.
Unless you are now saying a person isnt a human? Are you?

 

[Temujin]

Your own language betrays you YOU were that foetus and YOU are that person. Its you. It would have been YOU aborted and not some entity called a fetus.

No. My personality was not present in the womb. Any more than it will be in the coffin. The atoms which make up my body have existed for billions of years, and will last until the end of time. Not me though. I exist as a person from birth until death. That's it.

 

[Whateverman]

Not redefining it, but educating Americans on the value of the preborn to accept what is self-evident: Preborn humans in the womb are human and therefore need to be given human rights as legal persons.

You can educate people on these things without changing the definition of the word "murder". Your definition means capital punishment and war-time deaths are murder, which the vast majority of people (Christian and otherwise) will disagree with.

The legal system in the past was used to deny slaves or others full rights based on their status as full persons or something less. Slaves could be abused or even murdered but the legal system didn't consider it abuse or murder.

In most cases, it actually DID consider these things crimes, but refused to hold slave owners accountable to the laws. Just as happened to Jews in Nazi Germany. There were few laws which made it legal for slaves and Jews to be killed outright, though there were obviously laws which imposed overly harsh punishments on both.

I understand that the law can legalize moral evil, and legal language can deny the technical use of words like "murder". But killing babies in the womb is evil even if your moral compass is broken and you choose to parse legal language in order to deny others basic human rights.

I'm going to stop right here. Not out of frustration with you, nor because I think so little of your arguments. I'm doing it because you're conflating two things: the killing of the unborn, and the definition of the word "murder".

You're talking about the former, and I'm talking about the latter. You think misusing the word is justified in the context of abortion, and I do not. You want to educate people about the humanity of the fetus, and I want to educate people on the meaning of the word "murder".

We're speaking past each other, and will continue to do so until we agree upon the subject being discussed.