Pro-choice

Andreas

Active member
Making abortion illegal doesn't make it a moral evil either. As I have said, I am not in favour of abortion, but I am in favour of a woman's right to choose abortion. Removing the right to such a choice would be a moral evil. In my opinion. Thinking that one's personal view of morality is objective fact, as you do, is just arrogance.

Why do many feel abortion is a moral evil? Simply because it is taking the lives of unborn people. The USA, to its shame, is on par with North Korea and China in allowing abortion up to the time of birth. A baby the day before birth in America, is considered a non-person by our government. It is nonsense any way you look at it and a monstrous evil on par with anything Hitler or Stalin or Mao ever did.

For years we have been lectured by the far left about "my body, my choice", yet many of these same people now want the Covid shot mandate. So, you took their illogical argument for abortion years ago. What is insanely missed by you and others is that the unborn baby doesn't have a choice. The baby is a human person and not a potato or tumor and needs legal protection like the baby that has just been born. Choosing an abortion or not is not like choosing a salad at a Ponderosa buffet. Don't forget that a human life is violently murdered by this process.
 

Andreas

Active member
Not till you are dead. Secular laws apply here. Try burning a witch if you don't believe me. One of the greatest plagues of mankind is the religious nutcase who thinks that earthly rules don't apply to them. That kind of thinking produces 9/11.

So called "Non-religious" nut cases like Planned Parenthood murder more people each week than 9/11 did. Odd that you feel sympathy for several dozen witches centuries ago, but no compassion for tens of millions of innocent babies that are burned alive or decapitated by abortionists. Your moral compass is broken.
 

BMS

Well-known member
I don't know what you are trying to ask here. Try again in English. I will expand your opportunity for biscuits. If you can find any poster here who posts from a country where abortion is illegal or where the legal system is not secular, I'll buy you a biscuit. A chocolate biscuit if it is someone who has joined in these discussions. No one here lives in Heaven, whatever their aspirations. Earthly, that is secular, laws apply universally.
It.would be pointless doing that since its not illegal to abort in the UK up to 24 weeks but it is in some countries where there is a 14 week limit.
When you refer puddleglum to the law, she isnt subject to UK law.
When puddleglum refers you to God's law, you refer to secular law, so when you refer us to secular law she can ignore you.
Hard luck
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Why do many feel abortion is a moral evil? Simply because it is taking the lives of unborn people. The USA, to its shame, is on par with North Korea and China in allowing abortion up to the time of birth. A baby the day before birth in America, is considered a non-person by our government. It is nonsense any way you look at it and a monstrous evil on par with anything Hitler or Stalin or Mao ever did.

For years we have been lectured by the far left about "my body, my choice", yet many of these same people now want the Covid shot mandate. So, you took their illogical argument for abortion years ago. What is insanely missed by you and others is that the unborn baby doesn't have a choice. The baby is a human person and not a potato or tumor and needs legal protection like the baby that has just been born. Choosing an abortion or not is not like choosing a salad at a Ponderosa buffet. Don't forget that a human life is violently murdered by this process.
I don't consider the unborn to be a person until it is capable of surviving ex utero. I agree that legal abortion up to the point of delivery is insane, but then is no legal abortion after conception. The developing foetus becomes a person over time. It isn't one from the off. Other countries manage to find abortion laws that are workable compromises. The US has such a poisonous public dialogue on the subject, that compromise is impossible. There is no doubting the sincerity on all points of view. What is required is honest negotiation without demonisation.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
So called "Non-religious" nut cases like Planned Parenthood murder more people each week than 9/11 did. Odd that you feel sympathy for several dozen witches centuries ago, but no compassion for tens of millions of innocent babies that are burned alive or decapitated by abortionists. Your moral compass is broken.
No "people" are "murdered". Foetuses are aborted. This is never a wonderful outcome, it is far, far short of "people being murdered". It is hyperbollocks like this that prevents sensible dialogue from taking place.
 

Andreas

Active member
I don't consider the unborn to be a person until it is capable of surviving ex utero. I agree that legal abortion up to the point of delivery is insane, but then is no legal abortion after conception. The developing foetus becomes a person over time. It isn't one from the off. Other countries manage to find abortion laws that are workable compromises. The US has such a poisonous public dialogue on the subject, that compromise is impossible. There is no doubting the sincerity on all points of view. What is required is honest negotiation without demonisation.

What do you mean by surviving ex utero? How about the thousands of premature babies that are in NIC units? Not persons yet? I'm glad you see that legal abortion up to the point of delivery is insane. Why is it insane? Is it evil to kill a baby in the womb who is over due at 40 weeks? Would you agree that a heartbeat qualifies a human as a "person"?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
It.would be pointless doing that since its not illegal to abort in the UK up to 24 weeks but it is in some countries where there is a 14 week limit.
When you refer puddleglum to the law, she isnt subject to UK law.
When puddleglum refers you to God's law, you refer to secular law, so when you refer us to secular law she can ignore you.
Hard luck
God's law doesn't apply here in the UK, or anywhere else on earth, or anywhere else in the real world. If you want to live by God's law, then do so. It is entirely voluntary.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No "people" are "murdered". Foetuses are aborted. This is never a wonderful outcome, it is far, far short of "people being murdered". It is hyperbollocks like this that prevents sensible dialogue from taking place.
People are.murdered in pro-choice abortion if the unborn is a person. You would need to prove its not a person.
And if an unborn human aborted at 17 weeks it legal in one country and illegal in another. So what is the point of legal, geography would be more crucial.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
People are.murdered in pro-choice abortion if the unborn is a person. You would need to prove its not a person.
And if an unborn human aborted at 17 weeks it legal in one country and illegal in another. So what is the point of legal, geography would be more crucial.
We all have different ideas about what makes a person and when a foetus becomes a person.. The ideas that count are the ideas of those who make the laws, where ever they are. Those ideas can be enforced. If you think that a foetus is a person from conception, then you have to explain why you think that. More importantly, you then have to persuade those who make laws to accept your ideas. Good luck with that. I don't have to do anything. My ideas are roughly in line with extant law in the UK. I am content with the status quo. That you are not is not my problem but yours.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No "people" are "murdered". Foetuses are aborted. This is never a wonderful outcome, it is far, far short of "people being murdered". It is hyperbollocks like this that prevents sensible dialogue from taking place.
Depends on what you are calling the entity. Seeing as the human being begins life in embryo and foetal stages it isnt reality to claim the human being at foetal stage isnt the human being or a person. That is why pro-choice and the likes of yourself call the unborn human 'the fetus' as though it isnt the human being.
That is why you don't have sensible dialogue and you wont be able to know it.
 

BMS

Well-known member
We all have different ideas about what makes a person and when a foetus becomes a person.. The ideas that count are the ideas of those who make the laws, where ever they are. Those ideas can be enforced. If you think that a foetus is a person from conception, then you have to explain why you think that.
The early stages of the life of a human being are in the womb at stages we call foetal and embryo. So since we are the human beings at that stage pro-choice abortion kills human beings. Whether you and others dehumanise the human being by not recognising them as 'person' doesn't change that reality. One cant prove reality to someone who doesn't recognise it.
And we aren't interested in such dehumanising hatred.

So we have to persuade those who make laws to accept the reality.
 

BMS

Well-known member
God's law doesn't apply here in the UK, or anywhere else on earth, or anywhere else in the real world. If you want to live by God's law, then do so. It is entirely voluntary.
God's law does apply, and one day you will find out, but you have been told.
As to the real world the human being starts life with embryonic and foetal stages so that is the reality whether you dehumanize the human being by requiring it to be a person in your sight or not.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
The early stages of the life of a human being are in the womb at stages we call foetal and embryo. So since we are the human beings at that stage pro-choice abortion kills human beings. Whether you and others dehumanise the human being by not recognising them as 'person' doesn't change that reality. One cant prove reality to someone who doesn't recognise it.
And we aren't interested in such dehumanising hatred.
It is not in evidence that the fetus is a human being/person.
So we have to persuade those who make laws to accept the reality.
No, you have to persuade them to agree with what you think is the case.
 

BMS

Well-known member
It is not in evidence that the fetus is a human being/person.
It is in evidence. You had all your DNA when you were in your mother's womb. It was you, it wasn't anyone or anything else. You weren't Temujin or a bus or a transpixie, you were you the human being you are. .
Yes it is in evidence
 
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