Pro-choice

[BMS]

Hello? Its all gone quiet when the rubber hits the road.
I said the human being begins life in the mother's womb at embryo and foetal stages, and the reply was "that is out of step with reality."

This, fellowship, is what we are up against. In some ways we are grateful to Temujin for coming to a Christian thread, outnumbered, and still putting what we call the woke position. Temujin and co. make up a lot of people who believe this stuff.
We are heading for major social dysfunction at this rate.

 

[Temujin]

Is the issue.


Which is the issue because if your DNA was giraffe you would be giraffe whether you identified as giraffe or not and as it happens your DNA, that you had when you were at your foetal stage, is not just that of a human being, but more precisely uniquely yours and you


It is defined by science, science can tell us your DNA is that of a human being and more precisely you.


The acorn is a tree at seed stage, and more precisely its an oak tree at seed stage. You might as well say you aren't a human being.
And so the fetus must be a human being because the human being has a foetal stage.

DNA shows that we are human. It says nothing whatsoever about personhood.

 

[Temujin]

Ok so that means you are saying the human being doesn't begin life in the mother's womb at embryo and foetal stages,. because that is what I said and you replied "that is out of step with reality."
So be it.

No, you should spend less time telling me what I'm saying (and getting it wrong) and more time reading what I'm actually saying. Which is that being a person does not begin at conception. It is hardly a controversial view.

 

[BMS]

DNA shows that we are human. It says nothing whatsoever about personhood.

Except that we werent talking about personhood, but about the human being as a person. The human being is unique according to their DNA, whether the person can be called a person during their foetal stage is obvious to me that they can, since all of us as a person went through that stage.

 

[Temujin]

Hello? Its all gone quiet when the rubber hits the road.
I said the human being begins life in the mother's womb at embryo and foetal stages, and the reply was "that is out of step with reality."

This, fellowship, is what we are up against. In some ways we are grateful to Temujin for coming to a Christian thread, outnumbered, and still putting what we call the woke position. Temujin and co. make up a lot of people who believe this stuff.
We are heading for major social dysfunction at this rate.

For "we" read "I". You are on your own sweetie. I love the way you call yourself a fellowship. I presume you see yourself as Gandalf. More like Lobelia Baggins.

 

[Temujin]

Nt

 

[Whateverman]

That depends on whether you are talking about human law or God's law.

No, it doesn't. God's law makes no distinction between killing and murder.

Human law does, though.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

No, it doesn't. God's law makes no distinction between killing and murder.

Human law does, though.

How many millions were murdered by the atheeist crusades of the last 100 years?

You have never studied the Bible. Hebrew has 6 different words for our word murder.

 

[Temujin]

How many millions were murdered by the atheeist crusades of the last 100 years?

Zero. There is no such thing as an atheist crusade.

 

[Lion IRC]

DNA shows that we are human. It says nothing whatsoever about personhood.

'Personhood' isn't a scientific term.
Subjective definitions of 'personhood' were popular in Germany in the 1930's/40's

 

[Lion IRC]

Zero. There is no such thing as an atheist crusade.

Well, technically 'crusade' entails a cross.

...but the old Atheism Plus+ forum (back in the day) had a logo with a + sign at the top of the symbol "A" with a swoosh/swirl encircling the "A".
And I remember thinking how much it resembled a mountain with a cross at the top, and the winding road leading up to that cross. (Mount Golgotha)

 

[Electric Skeptic]

'Personhood' isn't a scientific term.

Tell that to pro-lifers who keep insisting it is.

Subjective definitions of 'personhood' were popular in Germany in the 1930's/40's

So what? Godwinning won't help this discussion.

 

[Lion IRC]

Tell that to pro-lifers who keep insisting it is.

No. They already understand the difference between DNA and 'person'. And the definition of species - human/non-human. And the difference between alive and dead.

So what? Godwinning won't help this discussion.

Funny how none of the abortion-on-demand advocates will grant nazis the same right to decide the definition of "person" as the abortion industry believes it has.
#hypocrisy

 

[Tiburon]

I am pro-life. I believe that life is a gift given to each person and only God has the right to take that life from him. A person who commits serious crimes such a murder may forfeit his right to life; if that happens it is permissible for the government to take that life from him. Except in cases like that no human has the right to take the life of another human.

I am pro-choice. I believe God has given all of us the power to make choices. Sometimes we may make wrong choices that have tragic consequences but we are free to make those choices.

Because I am pro-life and pro-choice I am anti-abortion. Abortion destroys an innocent life and prevents it from ever making any choices. Unfortunately I can’t tell anyone I am pro-choice because that would give them a false idea of what I believe. Advocates of abortion have stolen the “pro-choice” label and use it to indicate that someone is in favor of allowing abortion. They say that pregnant women have the right to choose to end their pregnancies by killing their unborn child. They deny that the child has any rights.

This isn’t the first time Satan has tried to suppress the truth be having his followers apply to themselves a name or label that rightfully belongs to those who support the truth. There are false religions that call themselves by names that actually belong to Christians.

Identity theft

Identity theft is a major problem and all of us must take precautions to protect ourselves from it. It is not a new problem; Christians have been victims of it in the past. In fact we have had more that one identity stolen from us. The word Muslim means “one who submits to God.” God commands...

forums.carm.org

I don't understand the hypocrisy of opposing abortion but supporting state sanctioned murder.

 

[Tiburon]

One of the ten commandments is "Do not murder." That covers abortion.

It also covers the death penalty.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

No. They already understand the difference between DNA and 'person'. And the definition of species - human/non-human. And the difference between alive and dead.

Sorry but no, they don't. Look at this very thread where a particular poster is repeatedly claiming the opposite.

Funny how none of the abortion-on-demand advocates will grant nazis the same right to decide the definition of "person" as the abortion industry believes it has.

What's funny about that? In no country in history has a fetus ever been accorded the status of personhood. So you are trying to equate the position that humanity has taken throughout recorded history with Nazism? And you really think that's a good argument?

 

[Electric Skeptic]

One of the ten commandments is "Do not murder." That covers abortion.

Sorry, but wrong. Wherever it is legal, abortion is not murder by definition.

Of course, whether it actually says 'kill' or 'murder' is debatable. But if it says 'kill' it obviously means kill people/persons (rather than non-human animals). The bible nowhere states that the fetus is a person or is to be considered a person.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Yep. Intentional killing of Jews in Nazi Germany was legal. But the definition of murder is
"the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

You've been told this repeatedly. Killing of jews in Nazi German was not legal. Never. Ever. The Nazis just ignored the law.

NB the Nazis killed Jews because they treated them a subhuman, and pro-choice kill unborn human offspring because they dont even consider them human

Blatantly false.

Why do pro-lifers consistently make up falsehoods about what pro-choicers say and the positions they take?

 

[Lion IRC]

In no country in history has a fetus ever been accorded the status of personhood.

False.
Chile, Hungary, Philippines...
There is an abundance of common law extending legal rights to the unborn and imposing duty of care obligations to protect the unborn.
Wrongful death and medical malpractice lawsuits affirm that the welfare of the unborn is a valid consideration.
Read some medical and/or law journals.

So you are trying to equate [...abortion...] with Nazism? And you really think that's a good argument?

Youre right. It's very unfair to equate the Nazis subjective views about 'personhood' with the abortion industry.

The nazis could never have managed, (even in a decade,) to kill
as many 'non-persons' as the abortion industry does in just 12 months.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

False.
Chile, Hungary, Philippines...

None of those have accorded the fetus the status of personhood.

There is an abundance of common law extending legal rights to the unborn and imposing duty of care obligations to protect the unborn.

Which is not according personhood to them.

Wrongful death and medical malpractice lawsuits affirm that the welfare of the unborn is a valid consideration.
Read some medical and/or law journals.

Again, none of that accords personhood to the unborn.

Again, nowhere in history has any nation accorded the fetus the status of personhood.

Youre right. It's very unfair to equate the Nazis subjective views about 'personhood' with the abortion industry.

You're close. It's laughable to compare the Nazi's views about the Jews (and some other minorities) with the position of the entire rest of the human race throughout history regarding fetus.

The nazis could never have managed, (even in a decade,) to kill
as many 'non-persons' as the abortion industry does in just 12 months.

And equating the millions killed in the Holocaust with aborted fetus is insulting to the Nazis' victims.

Why is it that pro-lifers can never actually discuss the issue rationally and reasonably?