Pro-choice

Temujin

Well-known member
That's kind of the point.
Subjective views can be whatever you prefer and without an objective umpire, the nazis opinions are neither true or false.View attachment 2089
Exactly. Just as everyone's subjective views on abortion are neither true nor false. They are either persuasive or not persuasive. Persuasive subjective views may become objective legal statute, which is essentially what we are all arguing over. The abortion debate is a morass of subjective moral views. All sincerely and passionately held. Wittering on about the Nazis gets us nowhere.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
More nonsense. The culture of death overlies every word of your rant. You want to make your own truth to rule the day. Jesus had something else in mind. I sincerely hope you find Him.
The "culture of death", whatever that is, clearly clouds your judgement, as nothing in my post mentioned death at all. It is simply pointing out that saying. "The Nazis did this therefore it is evil." is a rubbish argument. I leave you to your morbid thoughts.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Rubbish. You are losing at this so you try to switch to another subject where you have already lost. My views on trans rights, and yours, have no more relevance to abortion than my views on tax or climate change or covid vaccines. There are other places and other threads where these issues are actively discussed. If you wish to concede defeat on abortion, that's fine. Muddying the water like this doesn't help you.

I don't care what you believe. Your views are contrary to the Word of God hence, you wrong.

I'll never concede on abortion. Not EVER. Murder is murder no matter what your excuses are.

 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Subjective views can be whatever you prefer and without an objective umpire, the nazis opinions are neither true or false.
Your 'objective umpire' was suspiciously silent and absent during WW2 when the Nazis were actually acting on those opinions. Not much of an umpire then.
 

puddleglum

Active member
We all have different ideas about what makes a person and when a foetus becomes a person..

Our ideas on this subject are irrelevant. God's ideas are what count. If you read the Bible you will find that he considers unborn children to be human. Consider John the Baptist. He was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb. Look at what happened when Mary visited his mother. "And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." (Luke 1:41) It is clear that he was a person and killing him would have been a violation of God's law.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Our ideas on this subject are irrelevant. God's ideas are what count.
Only to those who believe in Him. What actually counts are the ideas of those who make the laws governing our actions. If you want to live by God's laws, that's fine, as long as you don't break secular laws while doing so.
If you read the Bible you will find that he considers unborn children to be human. Consider John the Baptist. He was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb. Look at what happened when Mary visited his mother. "And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." (Luke 1:41) It is clear that he was a person and killing him would have been a violation of God's law.
And yet not all Christians agree with you. There are Christians (admittedly few on this forum) who support abortion rights because refusing them is so demeaning to women. They too can quote scripture and say "Therefore God...". You speak for yourself and your opinions. Your attempt to outsource your opinions to a supernatural deity fails without :
a) Cast iron assurances that your opinions accord with His.
B) Cast iron assurances that He exists.
You have neither of these, and are left with your opinion, neither more nor less important than anyone else's, including mine.
 

puddleglum

Active member
Only to those who believe in Him. What actually counts are the ideas of those who make the laws governing our actions. If you want to live by God's laws, that's fine, as long as you don't break secular laws while doing so.

And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:27-29 ESV

And yet not all Christians agree with you. There are Christians (admittedly few on this forum) who support abortion rights because refusing them is so demeaning to women. They too can quote scripture and say "Therefore God...". You speak for yourself and your opinions. Your attempt to outsource your opinions to a supernatural deity fails without :
a) Cast iron assurances that your opinions accord with His.
B) Cast iron assurances that He exists.
You have neither of these, and are left with your opinion, neither more nor less important than anyone else's, including mine.

I know my opinions on this issue accord with his because I am basing them on what he has revealed in the Bible. The Bible can be used to promote error by quoting statements out of context. For example, Psalms 14:1 and 53:1 both contain the words "there is no God" and if you take these words out of contest you could say that the Bible teaches atheism. You can also find statements if taken out of context seem to support abortion. That is why it is important to study everything the Bible teaches.

Proof of God's existence is found in the world he has created. It contains many things that could not have come into existence without the application of intelligence.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:27-29 ESV
Words written by men with an agenda. Men who controlled what God is alleged to want. And I use the word" men" advisedly.
I know my opinions on this issue accord with his because I am basing them on what he has revealed in the Bible. The Bible can be used to promote error by quoting statements out of context. For example, Psalms 14:1 and 53:1 both contain the words "there is no God" and if you take these words out of contest you could say that the Bible teaches atheism. You can also find statements if taken out of context seem to support abortion. That is why it is important to study everything the Bible teaches.
And yet still sincere Christians disagree with you. Personally, I have no interest in what the word of God"really" means, since I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than stories about an invented God.
Proof of God's existence is found in the world he has created. It contains many things that could not have come into existence without the application of intelligence.
The existence of the natural world is not proof of a creator at all, of any stamp; let alone the niche creator that you postulate. Intelligence is not necessary for any aspect of the natural world. Neither does "Intelligence" equal the Christian God.
 

BMS

Well-known member
All moral questions are subjective. Legal questions are objective.
Not so. If the law allows 14 weeks limit for sentience in one country and 24 weeks limit for survivability in another, the laws are subjective.

As to the rest of your waffle, as we said the fact that subjective notions of personhood was very popular in Nazi Germany shows why one has to be careful with subjective notions of personhood. Its relevant because of your subjective notions of personhood, and not because you don't think its relevant
 

BMS

Well-known member
No its not rubbish, it has been demonstrated by me and others are now telling you the same.
Your views on what you call 'trans rights' arent necessarily 'rights' at all especially as they deny the rights of women, which is law.
This is exactly the same delusion, to refuse to acknowledge the biological reality of male and female in favour of feelings, and to refuse to recognise the reality of the human being in the womb, in favour of feelings. This is the evidence put to you; you can respond but you cant escape.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Words written by men with an agenda.
Not according to them, and I believe them and I most certainly dont believe you. So what are the secular laws you keep on about if not written by men with an agenda?? Come on, have you no idea the rubbish you are proposing?

And yet still sincere Christians disagree with you.
And they disagree with the Biblical testimony of Christ, the only testimony of Christ we have from the contemporary community and eye witnesses. Who judged them sincere, you? As I continue to point out to you, look to the evidence, and to people who dont agree with the evidence.

Personally, I have no interest in what the word of God"really" means, since I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than stories about an invented God.
But unlike you, personally, I have a good deal of interest in the reality of the unborn human being and the killing of it by pro-choice for selfish made up human reasons.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Not so. If the law allows 14 weeks limit for sentience in one country and 24 weeks limit for survivability in another, the laws are subjective.
Do you think that the existence of a particular law in a particular place is a matter of opinion or a matter of objective fact? This is not altered by different laws in different counties being an objective fact.
As to the rest of your waffle, as we said the fact that subjective notions of personhood was very popular in Nazi Germany shows why one has to be careful with subjective notions of personhood. Its relevant because of your subjective notions of personhood, and not because you don't think its relevant
Subjective notions of what makes a good breakfast were very popular in Nazi Germany, therefore all subjective opinions as to what makes a good breakfast should be banned as evil. Unless they agree with my personal subjective view, which I will pretend is objective by claiming that a few random Bible verses (none of which mention breakfast) prove that my subjective view is actually the objective view of God.

Do you really want to base your argument on such easily parodied nonsense?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
No its not rubbish, it has been demonstrated by me and others are now telling you the same.
Your views on what you call 'trans rights' arent necessarily 'rights' at all especially as they deny the rights of women, which is law.
This is exactly the same delusion, to refuse to acknowledge the biological reality of male and female in favour of feelings, and to refuse to recognise the reality of the human being in the womb, in favour of feelings. This is the evidence put to you; you can respond but you cant escape.
This has nothing to do with abortion. Stop trolling the thread. If you want to talk nonsense about trans issues, do so in the appropriate place. This is basic thread etiquette, applicable to all posters. Your obsession has now overrun normal standards of behaviour.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Do you think that the existence of a particular law in a particular place is a matter of opinion or a matter of objective fact? This is not altered by different laws in different counties being an objective fact.
So not so. If the law allows 14 weeks limit for sentience in one country and 24 weeks limit for survivability in another, the laws are subjective. Each country has chosen a subjective criteria for abortion and a subjective time limit. If you want the laws to be based on objective criteria, the you had better consider the laws in countries where abortion is illegal.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Not according to them, and I believe them and I most certainly dont believe you. So what are the secular laws you keep on about if not written by men with an agenda?? Come on, have you no idea the rubbish you are proposing?
Thankfully, what you believe is not taken seriously by those who take theses decisions. Of course the men, and women, who determine laws have an agenda. The point is that they don't claim that their agenda is inspired by God.
And they disagree with the Biblical testimony of Christ, the only testimony of Christ we have from the contemporary community and eye witnesses. Who judged them sincere, you? As I continue to point out to you, look to the evidence, and to people who dont agree with the evidence.
There is no evidence. All you have is a book full of self-contradictory statements that can be used to support any point of view under the sun. You sincerely believe that your view is backed by the word of God. Other Christians sincerely believe that their opposite view is supported by the word of God. All either of you have is the Bible, which is not evidence of anything, except the capacity of human beings to create lethal conflict in disagreement on the meaning of nonsense. The morality or otherwise of abortion won't be found in the Bible. Morality is human based, seated in the conscience of each individual.
But unlike you, personally, I have a good deal of interest in the reality of the unborn human being and the killing of it by pro-choice for selfish made up human reasons.
Why do you think I am here, if not interested in this subject? Why are your statements about what other people think and believe so often at complete variance to what they actually say they think and believe? Is it your ability to take in what other people say that is inadequate, or your honesty?
 

BMS

Well-known member
This has nothing to do with abortion. Stop trolling the thread. If you want to talk nonsense about trans issues, do so in the appropriate place. This is basic thread etiquette, applicable to all posters. Your obsession has now overrun normal standards of behaviour.
Why it is exactly the same spirit of denial has been alluded to by puddleglum and laid out by me. Trolling is where you are unwilling to debate.
Since you cant acknowledge the biology of male/man and female/woman, it is no surprise that you cant acknowledge the reality of the unborn human being in the womb.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
So not so. If the law allows 14 weeks limit for sentience in one country and 24 weeks limit for survivability in another, the laws are subjective. Each country has chosen a subjective criteria for abortion and a subjective time limit. If you want the laws to be based on objective criteria, the you had better consider the laws in countries where abortion is illegal.
I didn't say that laws are based on objective criteria. I said that laws are themselves an objective fact. Yet another example of your failure to report honestly what other people say. These falsehoods apparently come very easily to you. You should spend more effort checking before you write a statement based on what you wish the other person said.
 
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