Sketo
Well-known member
Properly Defining “Free” Will
What is meant by free will, in a theological discussion, is your metaphysical relationship to God. When it comes to you making choices the reference point for “freedom” needs to be God!
This is the only reference point, for “freedom”, that matters. Is God determining what you do, yes or no?
If your answer is no, because you hold to this idea of “freewill”, then what you are putting forth is a claim that you are free from God when you make choices. He is not determining them. So free will is freedom from God.
If you reject that definition, and say that that's somehow a misrepresentation of “free will” then you have a very watered-down version of freewill which actually is not important in the long run, because if you're going to admit that God can determine what you do then your reference point for “freedom” is not “God”… it's been moved somewhere else. Probably to just the simple fact that you're doing what you “want”… and you “doing what you want” works perfectly fine in a Calvinistic worldview as well. God is determining ALL THINGS (Eph1:11), not just what you will do, but also the fact that you “want to do them” so "doing what you want ‘freely’", in the sense of just “acting upon your desires” has nothing at all to do with the actual discussion of “free will” (freedom from God) which is what matters.
Foundational Verses
The next foundation I would like to lay are the three foundational verses that I consider most important on these topics.
The most important verses in the entire bible, on the topic of God's metaphysical relationship to you "Can you or can you not have free will?", are Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17, and Colossians 1.
Hebrews 1:2-3
in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
And he is before all things, and in him all things consist/hold together.
Acts 17:24-28
The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
Hebrews 1:3 says that God not only created the world, and the universe, but that he constantly upholds the universe by his power. So God upholds universe by his power and the verse is always true moment by moment by moment. God is exerting power and upholding the things that he created, and if you stop to think about it, this must be the case because whatever he creates is going to be less than him, less than eternal, less than self powered so it's going to be reliant upon him. So he must provide the sustaining power by which things, not just come into existence, but also are sustained in their existence.
Acts 17 says "in God we live and move and have our being". It's also mentioned in the context of creation. It says that “God who created the world... and "in God we live and move and have our being" so even us as creatures;
living (making choices),
moving (making choices taking actions)
and having our being in God.
The verse is always true that we live and move and have our being in God!
Colossians 1:17 says “In God all things consist/hold together”! So all three verses are saying the exact same thing that God not only created all things but continuously upholds them.
My point here is that these provide the foundation for the Calvinistic world view of God's absolute power over all things, and absolute control over all things, and our denial that you can even have free will to begin with!
My first question for the free will position is...
How can “free will” be true in light of the verses I just quoted?
How can you claim to be free from the God who upholds your existence at all times?
How can you claim to be free from the very power upon which you depend for your existence?
So the other question i would like to ask is...
How are you not stuck, as a free will proponent, promoting the idea of a “will free from God” in light of some Deistic Dualism in the sense that you actually believe God can create self-sustained things?
You believe that God can create you as a self-sustained, self-determined entity. How is that not committing to some form of Deism or Dualism, that there's more than one Ultimate Power at work in the universe? I don't bring up these terms to maliciously label people. I bring them up to be descriptive of your claims. You are claiming aspects of some sort of Deism that God can create self-sustaining things;
Your entire premise upon which God can “foreknow ‘free’ choices" is the assumption that God can foreknow the future of things that he has nothing to do with. And if he has nothing to do with those things then those things must be self-sustained, they must be self-powered, they must be self-caused, and self-moved as the free will position often says in their own definition of what free will is…
"we're our own first mover"
"we create our choices out of nothing"
How are you not committing some form of Deism or Dualism when you make those claims?
I also bring up these verses, instead of just launching into the standard Calvinistic proof texts such as "God works all things" or "God hardens hearts", because you have to have the right foundations in place. The three verses i quoted are FOUNDATIONAL… they are not proof texts! You can't look at those and say "you know you're reading your Calvinism into that". It's just plain, God upholds the universe, moment-by-moment-by-moment, at all times! There is no Calvinistic lens there! There is just Foundation, and I build the rest of my world view, and read other proof texts, like "God works all things" (Eph1:11), in light of that foundation.
What is meant by free will, in a theological discussion, is your metaphysical relationship to God. When it comes to you making choices the reference point for “freedom” needs to be God!
This is the only reference point, for “freedom”, that matters. Is God determining what you do, yes or no?
If your answer is no, because you hold to this idea of “freewill”, then what you are putting forth is a claim that you are free from God when you make choices. He is not determining them. So free will is freedom from God.
If you reject that definition, and say that that's somehow a misrepresentation of “free will” then you have a very watered-down version of freewill which actually is not important in the long run, because if you're going to admit that God can determine what you do then your reference point for “freedom” is not “God”… it's been moved somewhere else. Probably to just the simple fact that you're doing what you “want”… and you “doing what you want” works perfectly fine in a Calvinistic worldview as well. God is determining ALL THINGS (Eph1:11), not just what you will do, but also the fact that you “want to do them” so "doing what you want ‘freely’", in the sense of just “acting upon your desires” has nothing at all to do with the actual discussion of “free will” (freedom from God) which is what matters.
Foundational Verses
The next foundation I would like to lay are the three foundational verses that I consider most important on these topics.
The most important verses in the entire bible, on the topic of God's metaphysical relationship to you "Can you or can you not have free will?", are Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17, and Colossians 1.
Hebrews 1:2-3
in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
And he is before all things, and in him all things consist/hold together.
Acts 17:24-28
The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
Hebrews 1:3 says that God not only created the world, and the universe, but that he constantly upholds the universe by his power. So God upholds universe by his power and the verse is always true moment by moment by moment. God is exerting power and upholding the things that he created, and if you stop to think about it, this must be the case because whatever he creates is going to be less than him, less than eternal, less than self powered so it's going to be reliant upon him. So he must provide the sustaining power by which things, not just come into existence, but also are sustained in their existence.
Acts 17 says "in God we live and move and have our being". It's also mentioned in the context of creation. It says that “God who created the world... and "in God we live and move and have our being" so even us as creatures;
living (making choices),
moving (making choices taking actions)
and having our being in God.
The verse is always true that we live and move and have our being in God!
Colossians 1:17 says “In God all things consist/hold together”! So all three verses are saying the exact same thing that God not only created all things but continuously upholds them.
My point here is that these provide the foundation for the Calvinistic world view of God's absolute power over all things, and absolute control over all things, and our denial that you can even have free will to begin with!
My first question for the free will position is...
How can “free will” be true in light of the verses I just quoted?
How can you claim to be free from the God who upholds your existence at all times?
How can you claim to be free from the very power upon which you depend for your existence?
So the other question i would like to ask is...
How are you not stuck, as a free will proponent, promoting the idea of a “will free from God” in light of some Deistic Dualism in the sense that you actually believe God can create self-sustained things?
You believe that God can create you as a self-sustained, self-determined entity. How is that not committing to some form of Deism or Dualism, that there's more than one Ultimate Power at work in the universe? I don't bring up these terms to maliciously label people. I bring them up to be descriptive of your claims. You are claiming aspects of some sort of Deism that God can create self-sustaining things;
Your entire premise upon which God can “foreknow ‘free’ choices" is the assumption that God can foreknow the future of things that he has nothing to do with. And if he has nothing to do with those things then those things must be self-sustained, they must be self-powered, they must be self-caused, and self-moved as the free will position often says in their own definition of what free will is…
"we're our own first mover"
"we create our choices out of nothing"
How are you not committing some form of Deism or Dualism when you make those claims?
I also bring up these verses, instead of just launching into the standard Calvinistic proof texts such as "God works all things" or "God hardens hearts", because you have to have the right foundations in place. The three verses i quoted are FOUNDATIONAL… they are not proof texts! You can't look at those and say "you know you're reading your Calvinism into that". It's just plain, God upholds the universe, moment-by-moment-by-moment, at all times! There is no Calvinistic lens there! There is just Foundation, and I build the rest of my world view, and read other proof texts, like "God works all things" (Eph1:11), in light of that foundation.
So the problem is not who has a lens through which they read proof texts...
The question is…Whose lens is right? And Whose lens has a Biblical Foundation?
The question is…Whose lens is right? And Whose lens has a Biblical Foundation?