Manfred
Well-known member
There are no verses which state that faith is born in the mind of all the spiritually dead and that a such a carnal faith leads to the salvation of some.
Provisionist
- Thread starter Reformedguy
- Start date
Manfred
Well-known member
Why the personal attack?
Manfred
Well-known member
2Pe_2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
These false prophets here, did the faith their carnal minds came up with save them?
These guys surely claim faith in Jesus Christ even if they ultimately deny Him (like certain posters who believe He was not raised physically).
Your position is that their faith does save them. Please explain.
Manfred
Well-known member
2Co 11:12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
What about the faith of these, who claim to be Apostles of Christ. Is their faith saving them?
Obviously not.
Your claim of a Spirit-less faith born in the carnal mind, and that is able to save is debunked by the word of God.
Sorry that is not my position. You are misrepresenting my beliefs
And it appears you still do not understand this does nothing at all to prove your point. It simply shows there are false teachers
It does nothing to prove one cannot be saved by reading scripture or hearing the gospel preached without an additional supernatural revelation of the truth from the holy Spirit
Scripture is revelation and was inspired by the holy Spirit
you have not addressed rebuttal to your claims
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
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Sorry again the logic escapes you
The verse simply does not state no one can be saved by reading scripture or hearing the gospel preached unless they receive an additional supernatural revelation from the spirit
And I do not speak of a spirit less faith
Scripture is from the spirit and not spiritless
again however you address no rebuttal
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
forums.carm.org
Manfred
Well-known member
Calling me a liar while using different words.
Childish? Against the rules?
None of your verses teaches a carnal, devoid of the Spirit of God faith, saves you.
You are refuted.
This is a repeat which misrepresents my beliefs and does not address rebuttal
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
forums.carm.org
Manfred
Well-known member
No one can be saved by reading scripture without Spiritual revelation. Scripture and preaching without the Spirit of God bringing revelation results in false prophets and teachers.
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,
2Co 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Scripture refutes you.
There was no personal attack
You failed to address rebuttal and you failed to see your comments do not prove what you believe
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
forums.carm.org
That is an assertion not proof
as noted you address no rebuttal
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
forums.carm.org
PS as was previously noted you take that verse out of context
2 Corinthians 3:6-17 (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
the spirit of the new covenant is Christ. The jews missed Christ and as a result a vail remained over their eyes
In the same way without Christ the glory of the new covenant will not be seen
Your idea however that scripture is absent the spirit is not biblical
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
forums.carm.org
preacher4truth
Well-known member
I'm more concerned with his blasphemous dismissal and disregard of the Holy Spirit and His work in redemption. That is very troubling.
Sorry there was no dismissal of the spirit
The drawing is the work of the spirit
The word is the work of the spirit
The issue is you by your theology makes that work of no effect
Manfred
Well-known member
I quote scripture and you say it is an assertion.
You are refuted.
The letter kills. The Spirit gives life. Why are you not addressing that? Why are you removing the Holy Spirit and what He does from the scriptures?
You are refuted.
My idea of the scripture being read absent the Spirit is Biblical:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,
2Co 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
You trying to claim that I am saying God did not inspire the authors of scriptures is false.
You reading the scripture without Spiritual revelation is just you reading the scripture written by inspired men. That inspiration you cannot receive with a dead spirit.
You are refuted.
You keep saying that without any proof
the context of 2Cor 3:5 was addressed
In context the spirit as opposed to the letter is Christ
2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
and you still address no rebuttal
Provisionist
Man does supply the faith/belief in your dumb system which without you cannot be saved. Therefore they meritorious. The more you talk the more you agree with me. Thanks. Sorry but scripture contradicts you Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but...
forums.carm.org
until you do so you have not refuted anything
in any case I really don't know why you appeal to this passage as you hold no one could be saved by their preaching unless a personal revelation from the spirit is added in addition
so while you argue they preach in the spirit you still hold it is insufficient
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Manfred
Well-known member
No it was not
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who also hath made us able ministers ... - This translation does not quite meet the force of the original. It would seem to imply that Paul regarded himself and his fellow laborers as people of talents, and of signal ability; and that he was inclined to boast of it. But this is not the meaning. It refers properly to his sense of the responsibility and difficulty of the work of the ministry; and to the fact that he did not esteem himself to be sufficient for this work in his own strength 2 Corinthians 2:16; 2 Corinthians 3:5; and he here says that God had made him sufficient: not able, talented, learned, but sufficient ἱκάνωσεν ἡμᾶς hikanōsen hēmas; he has supplied our deficiency; he has rendered us competent, or fit; if a word may be coined after the manner of the Greek here, "he has sufficiency us for this work." There is no assertion, therefore, here, that they were people of talents, or special ability, but only that God had qualified them for their work, and made them by his grace sufficient to meet the toils and responsibilites of this arduous office.
Of the New Testament - Of the new covenant (note, Matthew 26:28), in contradistinction from the old covenant, which was established through Moses. They were appointed to go forth and make the provisions of that new covenant known to a dying world.
Not of the letter - Not of the literal, or verbal meaning, in contradistinction from the Spirit; see the notes on Romans 2:27, Romans 2:29; Romans 7:6. This is said, doubtless, in opposition to the Jews, and Jewish teachers. They insisted much on the letter of the Law, but entered little into its real meaning. They did not seek out the true spiritual sense of the Old Testament; and hence, they rested on the mere literal observance of the rites and ceremonies of religion without understanding their true nature and design. Their service, though in many respects conformed to the letter of the Law, yet became cold, formal, and hypocritical; abounding in mere ceremonies, and where the heart had little to do. Hence, there was little pure spiritual worship offered to God; and hence also they rejected the Messiah whom the old covenant prefigured, and was designed to set forth.
For the letter killeth - compare notes on Romans 4:15; Romans 7:9-10. The mere letter of the Law of Moses. The effect of it was merely to produce condemnation; to produce a sense of guilt, and danger, and not to produce pardon, relief, and joy. The Law denounced death; condemned sin in all forms; and the effect of it was to produce a sense of guilt and condemnation.
But the spirit giveth life - The spirit, in contradistinction from the mere literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The Spirit, that is, Christ, says Locke, compare 2 Corinthians 3:17. The spirit here means, says Bloomfield, that new spiritual system, the gospel. The Spirit of God speaking in us, says Doddridge. The spirit here seems to refer to the New Testament, or the new dispensation in contradistinction from the old. That was characterized mainly by its strictness of Law, and by its burdensome rites, and by the severe tone of its denunciation for sin. It did not in itself provide a way of pardon and peace. Law condemns; it does not speak of forgiveness. On the contrary, the gospel, a spiritual system, is designed to impart life and comfort to the soul. It speaks peace. It comes not to condemn, but to save. It discloses a way of mercy, and it invites all to partake and live. It is called "spirit," probably because its consolations are imparted and secured by the Spirit of God - the source of all true life to the soul. It is the dispensation of the Spirit; and it demands a spiritual service - a service that is free, and elevated, and tending eminently to purify the heart, and to save the soul; see the note on 2 Corinthians 3:17.
In the previous verse, Paul referred to the absolute confidence he has that his ministry of representing Christ is from God. Now he makes clear that his is not a confidence built on belief in himself or his own skills, abilities, and knowledge.
At one time, Paul would likely have placed great confidence in himself based on those things. He wrote this in Philippians 3:4–6, "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."
But when he came to Christ, Paul lost all that earthly, religious confidence, "But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ" (Philippians 3:7). Now he writes that any selfish version of self-confidence is gone. He does not believe he and his co-workers are sufficient in themselves to take any credit. They are not ultimately responsible for delivering anything of value to the Corinthians. Instead, their sufficiency comes from God. It is by God's power they deliver God's message to the people God wants to reach.
Context Summary Second Corinthians 3:1–6 poetically describes the only letter of recommendation Paul needs for his legitimacy as an apostle: the Christians in Corinth. Paul and his friends delivered Christ to them. The Corinthians are a letter written by Christ not with ink but with the Holy Spirit, not on tablets of stone but on human hearts. God is the one who has empowered Paul for the ministry and who sent him and his friends into the world to do it. |
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What does 2 Corinthians 3:5 mean? | BibleRef.com
Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, - What is the meaning of 2 Corinthians 3:5?
www.bibleref.com
2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves
Though we are sufficient for this work to which God has called us, and have such trust and confidence that he has blessed and owned us, and done such great things by us; yet we do not ascribe anything to ourselves, to any power of ours, to any self-sufficiency in us: for "we are not sufficient of ourselves" neither for the work of the ministry, nor for the conversion of sinners, nor for faith and hope in God, nor for any spiritual work whatever; not even to think anything as of ourselves; any good thing, either for our own use and benefit, or for the advantage of others; we are not able of ourselves to meditate with judgment and affection upon the word of God, to study the Scriptures, to collect from them things fit for the ministry; and much less with freedom and boldness to speak of them to edification; and still less able to impress them upon the heart: for though you who are the epistle of Christ are ministered by us, yet not by any power and self-sufficiency of ours;
2 Corinthians 3:5 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
What does 2 Corinthians 3:5 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.
www.biblestudytools.com
You are refuted
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Keep it coming sir! When it gets boiled down, all of these arguments they are bringing are all designed to get away from the fact of God's Sovereignty in Salvation and all areas.No it was not
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who also hath made us able ministers ... - This translation does not quite meet the force of the original. It would seem to imply that Paul regarded himself and his fellow laborers as people of talents, and of signal ability; and that he was inclined to boast of it. But this is not the meaning. It refers properly to his sense of the responsibility and difficulty of the work of the ministry; and to the fact that he did not esteem himself to be sufficient for this work in his own strength 2 Corinthians 2:16; 2 Corinthians 3:5; and he here says that God had made him sufficient: not able, talented, learned, but sufficient ἱκάνωσεν ἡμᾶς hikanōsen hēmas; he has supplied our deficiency; he has rendered us competent, or fit; if a word may be coined after the manner of the Greek here, "he has sufficiency us for this work." There is no assertion, therefore, here, that they were people of talents, or special ability, but only that God had qualified them for their work, and made them by his grace sufficient to meet the toils and responsibilites of this arduous office.
Of the New Testament - Of the new covenant (note, Matthew 26:28), in contradistinction from the old covenant, which was established through Moses. They were appointed to go forth and make the provisions of that new covenant known to a dying world.
Not of the letter - Not of the literal, or verbal meaning, in contradistinction from the Spirit; see the notes on Romans 2:27, Romans 2:29; Romans 7:6. This is said, doubtless, in opposition to the Jews, and Jewish teachers. They insisted much on the letter of the Law, but entered little into its real meaning. They did not seek out the true spiritual sense of the Old Testament; and hence, they rested on the mere literal observance of the rites and ceremonies of religion without understanding their true nature and design. Their service, though in many respects conformed to the letter of the Law, yet became cold, formal, and hypocritical; abounding in mere ceremonies, and where the heart had little to do. Hence, there was little pure spiritual worship offered to God; and hence also they rejected the Messiah whom the old covenant prefigured, and was designed to set forth.
For the letter killeth - compare notes on Romans 4:15; Romans 7:9-10. The mere letter of the Law of Moses. The effect of it was merely to produce condemnation; to produce a sense of guilt, and danger, and not to produce pardon, relief, and joy. The Law denounced death; condemned sin in all forms; and the effect of it was to produce a sense of guilt and condemnation.
But the spirit giveth life - The spirit, in contradistinction from the mere literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The Spirit, that is, Christ, says Locke, compare 2 Corinthians 3:17. The spirit here means, says Bloomfield, that new spiritual system, the gospel. The Spirit of God speaking in us, says Doddridge. The spirit here seems to refer to the New Testament, or the new dispensation in contradistinction from the old. That was characterized mainly by its strictness of Law, and by its burdensome rites, and by the severe tone of its denunciation for sin. It did not in itself provide a way of pardon and peace. Law condemns; it does not speak of forgiveness. On the contrary, the gospel, a spiritual system, is designed to impart life and comfort to the soul. It speaks peace. It comes not to condemn, but to save. It discloses a way of mercy, and it invites all to partake and live. It is called "spirit," probably because its consolations are imparted and secured by the Spirit of God - the source of all true life to the soul. It is the dispensation of the Spirit; and it demands a spiritual service - a service that is free, and elevated, and tending eminently to purify the heart, and to save the soul; see the note on 2 Corinthians 3:17.
In the previous verse, Paul referred to the absolute confidence he has that his ministry of representing Christ is from God. Now he makes clear that his is not a confidence built on belief in himself or his own skills, abilities, and knowledge.
At one time, Paul would likely have placed great confidence in himself based on those things. He wrote this in Philippians 3:4–6, "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."
But when he came to Christ, Paul lost all that earthly, religious confidence, "But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ" (Philippians 3:7). Now he writes that any selfish version of self-confidence is gone. He does not believe he and his co-workers are sufficient in themselves to take any credit. They are not ultimately responsible for delivering anything of value to the Corinthians. Instead, their sufficiency comes from God. It is by God's power they deliver God's message to the people God wants to reach.
Second Corinthians 3:1–6 poetically describes the only letter of recommendation Paul needs for his legitimacy as an apostle: the Christians in Corinth. Paul and his friends delivered Christ to them. The Corinthians are a letter written by Christ not with ink but with the Holy Spirit, not on tablets of stone but on human hearts. God is the one who has empowered Paul for the ministry and who sent him and his friends into the world to do it.What does 2 Corinthians 3:5 mean? | BibleRef.com
Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, - What is the meaning of 2 Corinthians 3:5?www.bibleref.com
2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves
Though we are sufficient for this work to which God has called us, and have such trust and confidence that he has blessed and owned us, and done such great things by us; yet we do not ascribe anything to ourselves, to any power of ours, to any self-sufficiency in us: for "we are not sufficient of ourselves" neither for the work of the ministry, nor for the conversion of sinners, nor for faith and hope in God, nor for any spiritual work whatever; not even to think anything as of ourselves; any good thing, either for our own use and benefit, or for the advantage of others; we are not able of ourselves to meditate with judgment and affection upon the word of God, to study the Scriptures, to collect from them things fit for the ministry; and much less with freedom and boldness to speak of them to edification; and still less able to impress them upon the heart: for though you who are the epistle of Christ are ministered by us, yet not by any power and self-sufficiency of ours;
2 Corinthians 3:5 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
What does 2 Corinthians 3:5 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.
You are refuted
Keep contending! Jude 1:3ff
What you miss is the message they preach was a message which comes from the spiritNo it was not
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who also hath made us able ministers ... - This translation does not quite meet the force of the original. It would seem to imply that Paul regarded himself and his fellow laborers as people of talents, and of signal ability; and that he was inclined to boast of it. But this is not the meaning. It refers properly to his sense of the responsibility and difficulty of the work of the ministry; and to the fact that he did not esteem himself to be sufficient for this work in his own strength 2 Corinthians 2:16; 2 Corinthians 3:5; and he here says that God had made him sufficient: not able, talented, learned, but sufficient ἱκάνωσεν ἡμᾶς hikanōsen hēmas; he has supplied our deficiency; he has rendered us competent, or fit; if a word may be coined after the manner of the Greek here, "he has sufficiency us for this work." There is no assertion, therefore, here, that they were people of talents, or special ability, but only that God had qualified them for their work, and made them by his grace sufficient to meet the toils and responsibilites of this arduous office.
Of the New Testament - Of the new covenant (note, Matthew 26:28), in contradistinction from the old covenant, which was established through Moses. They were appointed to go forth and make the provisions of that new covenant known to a dying world.
Not of the letter - Not of the literal, or verbal meaning, in contradistinction from the Spirit; see the notes on Romans 2:27, Romans 2:29; Romans 7:6. This is said, doubtless, in opposition to the Jews, and Jewish teachers. They insisted much on the letter of the Law, but entered little into its real meaning. They did not seek out the true spiritual sense of the Old Testament; and hence, they rested on the mere literal observance of the rites and ceremonies of religion without understanding their true nature and design. Their service, though in many respects conformed to the letter of the Law, yet became cold, formal, and hypocritical; abounding in mere ceremonies, and where the heart had little to do. Hence, there was little pure spiritual worship offered to God; and hence also they rejected the Messiah whom the old covenant prefigured, and was designed to set forth.
For the letter killeth - compare notes on Romans 4:15; Romans 7:9-10. The mere letter of the Law of Moses. The effect of it was merely to produce condemnation; to produce a sense of guilt, and danger, and not to produce pardon, relief, and joy. The Law denounced death; condemned sin in all forms; and the effect of it was to produce a sense of guilt and condemnation.
But the spirit giveth life - The spirit, in contradistinction from the mere literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The Spirit, that is, Christ, says Locke, compare 2 Corinthians 3:17. The spirit here means, says Bloomfield, that new spiritual system, the gospel. The Spirit of God speaking in us, says Doddridge. The spirit here seems to refer to the New Testament, or the new dispensation in contradistinction from the old. That was characterized mainly by its strictness of Law, and by its burdensome rites, and by the severe tone of its denunciation for sin. It did not in itself provide a way of pardon and peace. Law condemns; it does not speak of forgiveness. On the contrary, the gospel, a spiritual system, is designed to impart life and comfort to the soul. It speaks peace. It comes not to condemn, but to save. It discloses a way of mercy, and it invites all to partake and live. It is called "spirit," probably because its consolations are imparted and secured by the Spirit of God - the source of all true life to the soul. It is the dispensation of the Spirit; and it demands a spiritual service - a service that is free, and elevated, and tending eminently to purify the heart, and to save the soul; see the note on 2 Corinthians 3:17.
In the previous verse, Paul referred to the absolute confidence he has that his ministry of representing Christ is from God. Now he makes clear that his is not a confidence built on belief in himself or his own skills, abilities, and knowledge.
At one time, Paul would likely have placed great confidence in himself based on those things. He wrote this in Philippians 3:4–6, "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."
But when he came to Christ, Paul lost all that earthly, religious confidence, "But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ" (Philippians 3:7). Now he writes that any selfish version of self-confidence is gone. He does not believe he and his co-workers are sufficient in themselves to take any credit. They are not ultimately responsible for delivering anything of value to the Corinthians. Instead, their sufficiency comes from God. It is by God's power they deliver God's message to the people God wants to reach.
Second Corinthians 3:1–6 poetically describes the only letter of recommendation Paul needs for his legitimacy as an apostle: the Christians in Corinth. Paul and his friends delivered Christ to them. The Corinthians are a letter written by Christ not with ink but with the Holy Spirit, not on tablets of stone but on human hearts. God is the one who has empowered Paul for the ministry and who sent him and his friends into the world to do it.What does 2 Corinthians 3:5 mean? | BibleRef.com
Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, - What is the meaning of 2 Corinthians 3:5?www.bibleref.com
2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves
Though we are sufficient for this work to which God has called us, and have such trust and confidence that he has blessed and owned us, and done such great things by us; yet we do not ascribe anything to ourselves, to any power of ours, to any self-sufficiency in us: for "we are not sufficient of ourselves" neither for the work of the ministry, nor for the conversion of sinners, nor for faith and hope in God, nor for any spiritual work whatever; not even to think anything as of ourselves; any good thing, either for our own use and benefit, or for the advantage of others; we are not able of ourselves to meditate with judgment and affection upon the word of God, to study the Scriptures, to collect from them things fit for the ministry; and much less with freedom and boldness to speak of them to edification; and still less able to impress them upon the heart: for though you who are the epistle of Christ are ministered by us, yet not by any power and self-sufficiency of ours;
2 Corinthians 3:5 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
What does 2 Corinthians 3:5 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.
You are refuted
It is not just the words of man but the very word of the spirit
It is not to be assumed man possesses in himself the power to change hearts but the word of God itself
preached by an inspired man does
Sorry the bible nowhere states God's word spoken by an anointed prophet or apostles or preacher is insufficient
BTW did you actually read all that you quoted ?
For the letter killeth - compare notes on Romans 4:15; Romans 7:9-10. The mere letter of the Law of Moses. The effect of it was merely to produce condemnation; to produce a sense of guilt, and danger, and not to produce pardon, relief, and joy. The Law denounced death; condemned sin in all forms; and the effect of it was to produce a sense of guilt and condemnation.
But the spirit giveth life - The spirit, in contradistinction from the mere literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The Spirit, that is, Christ, says Locke, compare 2 Corinthians 3:17. The spirit here means, says Bloomfield, that new spiritual system, the gospel. The Spirit of God speaking in us, says Doddridge. The spirit here seems to refer to the New Testament, or the new dispensation in contradistinction from the old.
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Actually it is you who are denying the sovereignty of God in supporting the idea God cannot use means to bring the knowledge of salvation and must supplement the means by a personal revelation
Manfred
Well-known member
You are contradicting yourself.
we do not support an idea that God cannot use means to bring the knowledge of salvation........
We support the scriptures that teach God brings "the knowledge" of salvation through Spiritual revelation to those he chooses.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
You are the one supporting the idea that God is not Sovereign if he does not allow man to understand the spiritual in the natural.
You say God uses a means, and then contradict it with your teachings. Your teaching when taken to it's logical conclusion is that He waits to react based on the means of man and his correct understanding of the written word.
What it boils down to in your theology is a powerless gospel. The scriptures which are revelation, as per your teaching, are not sufficient as you keep hammering on.
If your claim was true as to the sufficiency without personal Spiritual revelation, you would not have false teachers like Mormons or JW"s.
Your position cannot stand and is built on sand.
You remain thoroughly refuted.
Before you go of on a tangent, deal with Matt 11, and don't try and convince me the context is something it is not, as you have been trying to do with other scriptures.
Scripture - ... the Spirit gives life ..
Tom - No, the Spirit does not give life, man gives life to himself when he believes without the Spirit...
Who should people believe, the Spirit of God, or the deceiving spirit trying it's best to make the Spirit of God null and void.