Provisionist

fltom

Well-known member
You are contradicting yourself.

we do not support an idea that God cannot use means to bring the knowledge of salvation........
Of course you have

You denied any can be saved by means of preaching or scripture

unless they have in additional personal supernatural revelation from the spirit

You have no scriptures saying this and you cannot address rebuttal

so the only refutation is one which is a figment of your imagination

Matthew 11 does not help you

Jesus tells us who he wants to receive revelation

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Its every creature
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Of course you have

You denied any can be saved by means of preaching or scripture
Yes, it is powerless without the Spirit
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Your faith rests in the wisdom of men and not in the Power of God
unless they have in additional personal supernatural revelation from the spirit
Additional? There is no such thing. Without the Spirit of God you have a carnal understanding of scripture and the word preached. There is no power in that.
2Co_3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
You have no scriptures saying this and you cannot address rebuttal
I have given scripture and your rebuttal about the context was shown to be useless.
so the only refutation is one which is a figment of your imagination
You stand thoroughly refuted.
The Bible in no wise or manner teaches a faith born in the carnal mind of man, devoid of Spiritual revelation saves. It teaches the opposite as shown.
Matthew 11 does not help you

Jesus tells us who he wants to receive revelation
That is not what Matthew 11 teaches. You are bearing false witness and then you try and justify it by placing your false premise on Matthew 28 and Mark 16.

Those scriptures do not state that every creature will understand the Gospel using their carnal minds, nor does it teach that every creature is chosen to reveal the Father to.
Reality alone shows the opposite and refute you.
Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Its every creature
These scriptures you post further refute your premises.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Yes, it is powerless without the Spirit
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Your faith rests in the wisdom of men and not in the Power of God

Additional? There is no such thing. Without the Spirit of God you have a carnal understanding of scripture and the word preached. There is no power in that.
2Co_3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

I have given scripture and your rebuttal about the context was shown to be useless.

You stand thoroughly refuted.
The Bible in no wise or manner teaches a faith born in the carnal mind of man, devoid of Spiritual revelation saves. It teaches the opposite as shown.

That is not what Matthew 11 teaches. You are bearing false witness and then you try and justify it by placing your false premise on Matthew 28 and Mark 16.

Those scriptures do not state that every creature will understand the Gospel using their carnal minds, nor does it teach that every creature is chosen to reveal the Father to.
Reality alone shows the opposite and refute you.

These scriptures you post further refute your premises.
I've shown him the same exact things in Scripture and he denies their truths and God's work and supplants all of that with man. That is humanism and isn't the gospel as it only gives token credit to God.

Keep refuting him for the sake of the rest of those looking in.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Every coin has 2 sides

Psalm 119
in its entirety regarding Gods Holy Word

Jeremiah 23:29
"Is not My word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that smashes a rock?"

Matthew 24:25
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Every coin has 2 sides.

John 6:63
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

The Parable of the Sower

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

hope this helps !!!
 

fltom

Well-known member
Yes, it is powerless without the Spirit
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

So you do claim the means the Spirit employs are powerless in themselves

And that verse shows the spirit working on/with Paul .


Not providing supernatural revelation directly to the hearers
y
Your faith rests in the wisdom of men and not in the Power of God

Wrong the word of God is not the wisdom of man but God

You continue to disrespect his word

and provide no proof for your claims while ignoring rebuttal

 
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fltom

Well-known member
I've shown him the same exact things in Scripture and he denies their truths and God's work and supplants all of that with man. That is humanism and isn't the gospel as it only gives token credit to God.

Keep refuting him for the sake of the rest of those looking in.
Sorry empty claims refute nothing

neither of you have addresses the many verses I have supplied

neither provides a single verse actually states what you believe

That the preaching of the word and the reading of scripture is unable on its own to bring knowledge for salvation

Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
You cannot receive the spirit without faith

John 7:38–39 —ESV

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Gal. 3:2 —ESV

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?”

Gal. 3:5 —ESV

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—”

Gal. 3:14 —ESV

“so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Never in the sense you mean it

God gives the ability for faith and Grants (permits, allows, enables) faith by the gospel
The Bible does not say God gives the ability for faith. You disagreed with the extent of the gift not that it was a gift above. Changing your position?
 

fltom

Well-known member
The Bible does not say God gives the ability for faith. You disagreed with the extent of the gift not that it was a gift above. Changing your position?
Really who gives you that ability then

Men express faith in all kinds of things - where did that ability come from ?
 

fltom

Well-known member
The Bible does not say God gives the ability for faith. You disagreed with the extent of the gift not that it was a gift above. Changing your position?
Where does man get it then?

You have not answered this question

No I have not changed my position
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Where does man get it then?

You have not answered this question

No I have not changed my position
It is a gift. No ability required. Its all by the grace of God. Christ sustains all things including our faith. Hence we will never fall from it.
 

fltom

Well-known member
It is a gift. No ability required. Its all by the grace of God. Christ sustains all things including our faith. Hence we will never fall from it.
The nowhere states faith is a gift that God irresistibly gives to some and with-holds from others

That idea is the product of a systematic theology and not the bible
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
The nowhere states faith is a gift that God irresistibly gives to some and with-holds from others

That idea is the product of a systematic theology and not the bible
The nowhere states faith is a gift that God irresistibly gives to some and with-holds from others

That idea is the product of a systematic theology and not the bible
Okay. if you say so, Boast about how great and smart you are because you made the right choice.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Typical avoidance and distortion

Support your views with scripture not diversionary distortionary rhetoric
Point out the distortion. It seems to be a favorite word of yours. A word you like to throw around when the logical conclusion of your view is pointed out. So point out the distortion
 

fltom

Well-known member
Point out the distortion. It seems to be a favorite word of yours. A word you like to throw around when the logical conclusion of your view is pointed out. So point out the distortion
right here

"Boast about how great and smart you are because you made the right choice."

there is nothing about what I stated that must lead to that conclusion and your comment is but a strawman stereotype
 
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