Provisionist

fltom

Well-known member
Its a gift of God. I dont need ability to receive a gift.

Faith that the sun will come up and Spiritual faith are not one in the same
So, men who have faith in Allah have it because God gifted them with it?

or Joseph Smith?

or the Watchtower society?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You denied any can be saved by means of preaching or scripture
BTW, I never denied that those who are saved, are not saved by the means of revelation when hearing preaching or by revelation received when reading scripture.
Those who are saved, are saved through the power of God, by the means God put in place, which includes preaching and the scriptures:
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Any and every person whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to shall be saved. This revelation mostly occurs when hearing the gospel preached. The testimony one gives of Jesus Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, ......?”
Act_17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.”

You should refrain from bearing such falsehoods.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
So, men who have faith in Allah have it because God gifted them with it?

or Joseph Smith?

or the Watchtower society?
Why come to a conclusion that God gifted them that faith?

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Why come to a conclusion that God gifted them that faith?

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
There was no such conclusion. The point was men use the ability for faith in different ways. i
 

fltom

Well-known member
BTW, I never denied that those who are saved, are not saved by the means of revelation when hearing preaching or by revelation received when reading scripture.
Those who are saved, are saved through the power of God, by the means God put in place, which includes preaching and the scriptures:
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Any and every person whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to shall be saved. This revelation mostly occurs when hearing the gospel preached. The testimony one gives of Jesus Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, ......?”
Act_17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.”

You should refrain from bearing such falsehoods.
Nonsense you claimed both insufficient unless accompanied by a direct supernatural revelation of the Spirit
 

Manfred

Well-known member
There was no such conclusion. The point was men use the ability for faith in different ways. i
Come now Tom.

Why ask the question if that was not your conclusion.

men use the ability for faith?

Where did you come up with this?

If men had the ability, all would believe the same way and not in different ways.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Your premise leads you to deny scriptures like Eph 6:12
 

fltom

Well-known member
Come now Tom.

Why ask the question if that was not your conclusion.

men use the ability for faith?

Where did you come up with this?

If men had the ability, all would believe the same way and not in different ways.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Your premise leads you to deny scriptures like Eph 6:12
Sorry but you are greatly confused

men place their faith in many things.

That shows they have free will to do so

The idea that is men have ability for faith in no way demands they all believe the same thing

Even you Calvinist don't all believe the same thing

and you claim God sovereignly gifted that faith
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Nonsense you claimed both insufficient unless accompanied by a direct supernatural revelation of the Spirit
That is what scripture teaches:

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, .......


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
2:37-41 From the first delivery of that Divine message, it appeared that there was Divine power going with it; and thousands were brought to the obedience of faith. But neither Peter's words, nor the miracle they witnessed, could have produced such effects, had not the Holy Spirit been given. Sinners, when their eyes are opened, cannot but be pricked to the heart for sin, cannot but feel an inward uneasiness. The apostle exhorted them to repent of their sins, and openly to avow their belief in Jesus as the Messiah, by being baptized in his name. Thus professing their faith in Him, they would receive remission of their sins, and partake of the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. To separate from wicked people, is the only way to save ourselves from them. Those who repent of their sins, and give up themselves to Jesus Christ, must prove their sincerity by breaking off from the wicked. We must save ourselves from them; which denotes avoiding them with dread and holy fear. By God's grace three thousand persons accepted the gospel invitation. There can be no doubt that the gift of the Holy Ghost, which they all received, and from which no true believer has ever been shut out, was that Spirit of adoption, that converting, guiding, sanctifying grace, which is bestowed upon all the members of the family of our heavenly Father. Repentance and remission of sins are still preached to the chief of sinners, in the Redeemer's name; still the Holy Spirit seals the blessing on the believer's heart; still the encouraging promises are to us and our children; and still the blessings are offered to all that are afar off.

1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
 

Manfred

Well-known member
That shows they have free will to do so
Of course men have a free will to believe whatever they will.
You prove it here every day.

Faith that saves is another thing altogether.
Why does a Mormon not freely choose to believe the true gospel.

All except you seem to know the answer.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

You seem to think that you are not being deceived. These scriptures show that your are deceived. Your free will chooses deceit above the revelation that comes from God. You choose to believe a deceitful spirit.
 

fltom

Well-known member
That is what scripture teaches:

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, .......


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
2:37-41 From the first delivery of that Divine message, it appeared that there was Divine power going with it; and thousands were brought to the obedience of faith. But neither Peter's words, nor the miracle they witnessed, could have produced such effects, had not the Holy Spirit been given. Sinners, when their eyes are opened, cannot but be pricked to the heart for sin, cannot but feel an inward uneasiness. The apostle exhorted them to repent of their sins, and openly to avow their belief in Jesus as the Messiah, by being baptized in his name. Thus professing their faith in Him, they would receive remission of their sins, and partake of the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. To separate from wicked people, is the only way to save ourselves from them. Those who repent of their sins, and give up themselves to Jesus Christ, must prove their sincerity by breaking off from the wicked. We must save ourselves from them; which denotes avoiding them with dread and holy fear. By God's grace three thousand persons accepted the gospel invitation. There can be no doubt that the gift of the Holy Ghost, which they all received, and from which no true believer has ever been shut out, was that Spirit of adoption, that converting, guiding, sanctifying grace, which is bestowed upon all the members of the family of our heavenly Father. Repentance and remission of sins are still preached to the chief of sinners, in the Redeemer's name; still the Holy Spirit seals the blessing on the believer's heart; still the encouraging promises are to us and our children; and still the blessings are offered to all that are afar off.

1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
What does that do to support your claim men are incapable of believing based upon the preaching or reading of the word

and why do you reference a commentary while ignoring the word of God

first scripture shows men are regenerated made alive through faith

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

A dead man passed from death to life upon believing

John 5:25 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The dead who hear live

John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Dead men come to Christ to live

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Dead man believes that he might have life

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

dead man repents to have life

John 3:36 —ESV
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

again dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:47 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Second Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

third had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

fourth Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men

Mark 7:36 (ESV)
36 And Jesus charged them to tell no one. But the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mark 8:30 (ESV)
30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.
Mark 9:9 (ESV)
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luke 5:14 (ESV)
14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

sixth if man was born unable to believe truth jesus would not have told them to be like little children

Luke 18:17 —KJV
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”

Seventh God's word shows it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”
 

fltom

Well-known member
Of course men have a free will to believe whatever they will.
You prove it here every day.

As do you
Faith that saves is another thing altogether.
Why does a Mormon not freely choose to believe the true gospel.

He freely believes what he has been told or reads in Mormon resources

Just like you believe what you are told in of Calvinist theology
All except you seem to know the answer.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

You seem to think that you are not being deceived. These scriptures show that your are deceived. Your free will chooses deceit above the revelation that comes from God. You choose to believe a deceitful spirit.
Sorry but you come to absurd conclusion

That verse says nothing at all about which of us has the truth

You are assuming your views and begging the question

You need to prove your views with scripture instead of avoiding them as you have you need to address them
 

Manfred

Well-known member
first scripture shows men are regenerated made alive through faith
I told you this is not in contention.

Why do you keep ignoring that?

The contention is your premise that the faith that saves is generated in the carnal mind of man.

Where are your scriptures for that Tom?

I have already shown you it is not generated in the carnal mind of man.
Then you claim general revelation.

You have to explain why a faith derived from general revelation fails to save most people on earth.
Can you show scripture for this?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Just like you believe what you are told in of Calvinist theology
And here is your error.

I do not freely believe what I am told by men.
I am obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I receive revelation from the Spirit.
He is my teacher.

You are trying to project your beliefs onto me. You should stop that.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
As do you


He freely believes what he has been told or reads in Mormon resources

Just like you believe what you are told in of Calvinist theology

Sorry but you come to absurd conclusion

That verse says nothing at all about which of us has the truth

You are assuming your views and begging the question

You need to prove your views with scripture instead of avoiding them as you have you need to address them
Which scriptures have I avoided?
The ones that say you are saved by grace through faith?

I have been proving your premise about that false, not avoiding scripture, yet you just BLATANTLY avoided the scriptures I posted by saying I come to an absurd conclusion.

What is my absurd conclusion from these scriptures Tom?
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I told you this is not in contention.

Why do you keep ignoring that?

Really ? good

however that was just one of many reasons I just showing scripture and the preaching of it is sufficient

Why have you not addressed them?






The contention is your premise that the faith that saves is generated in the carnal mind of man.
First I never mentioned carnal that is your presupposition

and my evidence was in the verses you did not address

go back and address them




Where are your scriptures for that Tom?

I have already shown you it is not generated in the carnal mind of man.
Then you claim general revelation.

You have to explain why a faith derived from general revelation fails to save most people on earth.
Can you show scripture for this?

I never mentioned general revelation at all. so why do you speak of it

leaving off the support for the idea faith comes before regeneration which you agreed with

this is what I had posted

.................................................................

Second Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

third had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

fourth Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men

Mark 7:36 (ESV)
36 And Jesus charged them to tell no one. But the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mark 8:30 (ESV)
30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.
Mark 9:9 (ESV)
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luke 5:14 (ESV)
14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

sixth if man was born unable to believe truth jesus would not have told them to be like little children

Luke 18:17 —KJV
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”

Seventh God's word shows it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

...................................................................

There is no reference at all to general revelation

And seeing as you claim faith was a gift how is it you and most of your peers are in disagreement with over the order between faith and regeneration

In fact, why do you disagree over anything at all?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I never mentioned general revelation at all. so why do you speak of it
Why do you run away from your own teachings Tom?
Are you ashamed of what you teach?

If you do not teach general revelation, why do you insist all receive the same revelation when reading the Scriptures, yet not all believe the same way?
If you do not teach a faith born in the carnal mind, then where did the faith you teach come from if not born in the carnal mind?

I wager you will not answer, because it exposes you and your false teachings.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Which scriptures have I avoided?
The ones that say you are saved by grace through faith?

I have been proving your premise about that false, not avoiding scripture, yet you just BLATANTLY avoided the scriptures I posted by saying I come to an absurd conclusion.
You deny we are saved by grace through faith?

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But that is not what I am talking about

I am talking the many verses which support the believe scripture and the preaching of it are sufficient of themselves for understanding and belief


What is my absurd conclusion from these scriptures Tom?
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
It does nothing to address the conflict between us

You have the habit of begging the question and then posting verses as though they were somehow contrary to anything I stated

BTW how would you test the Spirits if not by the word of God?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You deny we are saved by grace through faith?
Why ask a stupid question like this?

I can see by this you have difficulty having a proper conversation with people.
I believe you are saved by grace through faith.

That is NOT in contention.

Try to stay focused Tom.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Why do you run away from your own teachings Tom?
Are you ashamed of what you teach?

Why do you post such silliness

I spoke of the specific Revelation which comes from the scriptures

not general revelation

In theology, general revelation, or natural revelation, refers to knowledge about God and spiritual matters, discovered through natural means, such as observation of nature (the physical universe), philosophy, and reasoning.

which is sufficient for a belief that there is a God but has no gospel presentation

yet men are free to deny even that revelation

sufficiency is not necessity

You seem to confound that frequently

Romans 1:18-21 (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.



If you do not teach general revelation, why do you insist all receive the same revelation when reading the Scriptures, yet not all believe the same way?
If you do not teach a faith born in the carnal mind, then where did the faith you teach come from if not born in the carnal mind?

Nowhere have i stated all come to the same conclusion reading scripture

Even you Calvinists who claim you got your faith from God do not all believe the exact same things

You affirmed faith precedes regeneration most of your peers deny that

From the word of God

Hello







I wager you will not answer, because it exposes you and your false teachings.

You lost that wager
 

fltom

Well-known member
Why ask a stupid question like this?

Because of your statement

Which scriptures have I avoided?
The ones that say you are saved by grace through faith?

I have been proving your premise about that false, not avoiding scripture, yet you just BLATANTLY avoided the scriptures

Hello I affirm we are saved by grace through faith but you claimed my premise about that is false

You seem to have a problem communicating what you wish here

I posted by saying I come to an absurd conclusion.

I can see by this you have difficulty having a proper conversation with people.
I believe you are saved by grace through faith.

That is NOT in contention.

Try to stay focused Tom.

Your comments are laughable

You post verses which do nothing at all to support your view which I noted

for example Eph 6:12

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


How does that show the scriptures and the preaching of it are insufficient in themselves as you contend

Hello

It doesn't

Not at all
 
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