Provisionist

[Manfred]

You post verses which do nothing at all to support your view which I noted

My view is that Mormons and others like yourself are deceived.
Why are you deceived in my view....
because they and the likes of you have a different spirit. One that is deceiving them/you
Why is my view correct....
The Bible teaches my faith rests in the power of God and not in my own faith coming from human wisdom.
Why is your view heretic.....
Unlike me, who believes that God granted me the faith for salvation through His power, you believe you granted yourself the faith for salvation through your wisdom.

So of course those verses prove that you are being deceived by a false spirit, just like Mormons and JW's are being deceived. They have exactly the same stance you have on the matter.

 

[fltom]

My view is that Mormons and others like yourself are deceived.

which you cannot prove scripturally and offer only your unsupported opinion

and verses which do not address the issue while ignoring those that do

 

[Manfred]

which you cannot prove scripturally and offer only your unsupported opinion

I have and am awaiting your rebuttal

You and others like the Mormons are deceived by a deceiving spirit.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Is it your contention for example that Mormons are not being deceived by a deceiving spirit?
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

You cannot understand why discernment of spirits is a spiritual gift, as your faith is devoid of the Spirit of God.

and verses which do not address the issue while ignoring those that do

The issue is whether or not faith lies in the Power of God by personal Spiritual revelation, or if faith lies in the power of your mind and intellect.

I say faith that saves is a work of God and prove it with scripture. You post scriptures that say nothing about a faith that is the work of man, devoid of Spiritual revelation.
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

When asking Tom if his faith lies in the power of God or in the wisdom of men, he runs away from answering and claims this is not at issue.

 

[preacher4truth]

My view is that Mormons and others like yourself are deceived.
Why are you deceived in my view....
because they and the likes of you have a different spirit. One that is deceiving them/you
Why is my view correct....
The Bible teaches my faith rests in the power of God and not in my own faith coming from human wisdom.
Why is your view heretic.....
Unlike me, who believes that God granted me the faith for salvation through His power, you believe you granted yourself the faith for salvation through your wisdom.

So of course those verses prove that you are being deceived by a false spirit, just like Mormons and JW's are being deceived. They have exactly the same stance you have on the matter.

Yes. It's not the Gospel, it's humanism.

 

[fltom]

I have and am awaiting your rebuttal

You and others like the Mormons are deceived by a deceiving spirit.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Wake up that says nothing at all that men are incapable of understanding the written or preached word

I have told you that 3 times already

Hello

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn_4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Is it your contention for example that Mormons are not being deceived by a deceiving spirit?

Again nothing there about men being incapable of understanding the written or preached word

And how do you test the spirits but by the written word

You keep posting verses which do nothing at all to support your view

1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

You cannot understand why discernment of spirits is a spiritual gift, as your faith is devoid of the Spirit of God.

More silliness

Does everyone have that gift?

No they don't

so how did the Bereans test Paul's message

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

and what does the scripture say of them

The issue is whether or not faith lies in the Power of God by personal Spiritual revelation, or if faith lies in the power of your mind and intellect.

Still confusion

Faith rests on the word of God

Romans 10:8-17 (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I say faith that saves is a work of God and prove it with scripture. You post scriptures that say nothing about a faith that is the work of man, devoid of Spiritual revelation.
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

When asking Tom if his faith lies in the power of God or in the wisdom of men, he runs away from answering and claims this is not at issue.

This is a falsehood

I have told you a hundred times my faith rests in God's word

Why do you bear false witness?

further the spirit here was working with Paul to bringing the message not on the hearers of the message

I have pointed this out to you previously

False witness and a failure to interpret passages correctly and correct your errors are not helping your argument

 

[Manfred]

I have told you that 3 times already

And you just telling me means nothing Tom.

You have a faith born from self correct?

I have a faith born of God.

Wo is being deceived I wonder?

 

[fltom]

And you just telling me means nothing Tom.

You have a faith born from self correct?

I have a faith born of God.

Wo is being deceived I wonder?

No born of the word of God

why are you loathe to disregard what I have stated to post your distortions?

Who is deceived - the one who cannot address scriptural rebuttal

that would be you

 

[Manfred]

No born of the word of God

You say you are born of the word of God...
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

This says the word of God is the Power of God only to those He is saving.
You claim you believe without the power of God. Your faith comes from self.

Am I wrong?

 

[fltom]

You say you are born of the word of God...
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

This says the word of God is the Power of God only to those He is saving.
You claim you believe without the power of God. Your faith comes from self.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong

1 Corinthians 1:18-21 (KJV)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
'
you assume the reason they are perishing

scripture informs

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

they perish because they refused to love the truth

and faith still comes from the word of God not self

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Manfred]

Yes you are wrong

So you have changed your teaching.

You now believe that saving faith is through the Power of the Spirit and not by your own faith.

Well done Tom

 

[fltom]

So you have changed your teaching.

You now believe that saving faith is through the Power of the Spirit and not by your own faith.

Well done Tom

You are very confused

I have changed nothing

you ignored what was stated

1 Corinthians 1:18-21 (KJV)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
'
you assume the reason they are perishing

scripture informs

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

they perish because they refused to love the truth

and faith still comes from the word of God not self

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Manfred]

you assume the reason they are perishing

You assume your own reason. Why?

I believe God reveals scripture through the Spirit that dwells in us.
You do not.

Who is assuming.....

 

[fltom]

You assume your own reason. Why?

I believe God reveals scripture through the Spirit that dwells in us.
You do not.

Who is assuming.....

No I did not I posted scripture

you assume the reason they are perishing

scripture informs

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

they perish because they refused to love the truth

Hello

You were the one assuming

 

[Manfred]

No I did not I posted scripture

Of course you did.

You assume your premise into scripture that you posted.

You do it all the time then claim you post scripture that no one can address.

I do not assume things into scripture like you do.

For example
You assume scripture says that by reading scripture alone all people have enough information to be saved.
False teachers who read scripture all the time prove your assumption wrong.

I say, only those to whom God chooses to reveal the gospel will believe and be saved.
This is proven by the scriptures I posted like:
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

1Th_1:5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

and

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

and

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

and

1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

and

2Co_3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

and

Mar_12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?

and

Rom_15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

and

2Co_10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

and

Eph_3:7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.

and

Gal_1:12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

and

Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

 

[fltom]

Of course you did.

Yes I did but apparently you omitted all my comments

you assume the reason they are perishing

scripture informs

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

they perish because they refused to love the truth

You assume your premise into scripture that you posted.

There was no assumption here

it's all in black and white

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

You do it all the time then claim you post scripture that no one can address.

I do not assume things into scripture like you do.

What you mean you don't address scriptural rebuttal


for example i have posted this which you never rersonably address

Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe John 12:40 —KJV “He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” had men not hardened themselves they could have believed Acts 28:27 —KJV “For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV “And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” God's word says/shows it is sufficient John 20:31 (KJV 1900) 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood 2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900) 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: It shall not return unto me void, But it shall accomplish that which I please, And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900) 7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900) 130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; It giveth understanding unto the simple. Self explanitory Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900) 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so Preaching and scripture cited as capable for understanding and belief Acts 17:11 —KJV “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” This shows one can judge spiritual truth by the scriptures which must be understood to do so Acts 18:28 —KJV “For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.” Presupposes spiritual truth explained can be understood John 1:7 —KJV “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.” Again presupposes spiritual truth explained can be understood James 1:21 (KJV) 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. Presupposes the word has power to save Ephesians 3:4 (KJV) 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Presupposes reading sufficient to knowv spiritual truth When God wanted Cornelius to receive the gospel he sent a preacher Acts 11:13-14 (KJV) 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. The spirit sent Philip to preach the gospel to the Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8:27-35 (KJV) 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Most of which you never stated a word about at all

For example
You assume scripture says that by reading scripture alone all people have enough information to be saved.
False teachers who read scripture all the time prove your assumption wrong.

Sorry all that shows is they a free will to believe or not believe or to believe a source other than god's word

That argument is worthless. it does not to show no one can believe. This has been pointed out to you previously

for some reason you continue posting though it does not prove your argument

It is just a rationalization you use to avoid scripture

I say, only those to whom God chooses to reveal the gospel will believe and be saved.
This is proven by the scriptures I posted like:
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

At that time then we read

John 17:20 (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Just another example of you ignoring what does not fit into your theology

1Th_1:5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Speaks of the Apostles preaching not supernatural revelation to the hearers

continued pt2

 

[fltom]

continued pt2

and

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

As addressed many times that refers to the sensuous person who heeds only earthy wisdom and not the wisdom of god

You ignored the fact others believed


1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

and

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Again you ignored the fact scripture shows those who are perishing are those who refused to love the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

and

1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Again speaks of the spirit working with Paul not providing supernatural revelation to the hearers

You continue to make this error

and

2Co_3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Again speaks of enabling the apostles

and

Mar_12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?

Says nothing at all about God's word being insufficient as you hold

and

Rom_15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

Says nothing at all God's word being insufficient as you hold

and

2Co_10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

and

Eph_3:7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.

Again speak of Pauls enablinmg nothing at all about the spirit providing personal revelation directly to his hearers

This is a continued error

and

Gal_1:12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

says nothing at all about Pauls hearers

Scripture plainly states men would believe trhrough their testimony not that everyone was going to receive personal revelation as had Paul

and

Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

you left off the following

Ephesians 3:4 (KJV)
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

hello that refutes your view

I can easily address your verses, but you never address mine