Provisionist

Theo1689

Well-known member
Believing is not a meritorious action.

So we're supposed to blindly accept that "believing is not meritorious", just because you CLAIM it's not?

From dictionary.com:

Meritorious (adj.)
1. deserving praise, reward, esteem, etc.; praiseworthy:

Sounds PRECISELY how one would describe "faith".

It is not a work!

Yes, Paul repeatedly contrasted with works. But the faith Paul spoke of is NOT the same faith Arminians believe in. It is the God-given gift that CAUSES (necessarily) the elect to believe. So you can't appeal to Paul when (IMO) he's not referring to what you believe.

There is no "respecting of persons" in conditional elections because all are equally welcome to believe and able to believe when convicted and enlightened by the Spirit through the gospel. Any man woman from any nation, of any status is able to believe the gospel!

You remind me of an old joke, which is based on deflection:

Q: "I have two coins totally 55 cents, and one is not a nickel. What are the two coins?"
A: "One coin is a fifty-cent piece. The OTHER coin is the nickel".

In the same way, you are deflecting away from the meritorious action.

You say "all are equally welcome to believe". If that's your theology, then being "welcome to believe" is not meritorious.

You say "all are able to believe the gospel" (which I don't find Biblical). But if that's your theology, then "being able to believe" is not meritorious.

But then from there, some actually DO believe, and some don't. And if the difference between believing and not believing comes from men, and not God, then it is by definition meritorious.

And that makes God "a respecter of persons".
 

fltom

Well-known member
So we're supposed to blindly accept that "believing is not meritorious", just because you CLAIM it's not?

From dictionary.com:

Meritorious (adj.)
1. deserving praise, reward, esteem, etc.; praiseworthy:

Sounds PRECISELY how one would describe "faith".



Yes, Paul repeatedly contrasted with works. But the faith Paul spoke of is NOT the same faith Arminians believe in. It is the God-given gift that CAUSES (necessarily) the elect to believe. So you can't appeal to Paul when (IMO) he's not referring to what you believe.



You remind me of an old joke, which is based on deflection:

Q: "I have two coins totally 55 cents, and one is not a nickel. What are the two coins?"
A: "One coin is a fifty-cent piece. The OTHER coin is the nickel".

In the same way, you are deflecting away from the meritorious action.

You say "all are equally welcome to believe". If that's your theology, then being "welcome to believe" is not meritorious.

You say "all are able to believe the gospel" (which I don't find Biblical). But if that's your theology, then "being able to believe" is not meritorious.

But then from there, some actually DO believe, and some don't. And if the difference between believing and not believing comes from men, and not God, then it is by definition meritorious.

And that makes God "a respecter of persons".
What does it mean that God is not a respecter of persons?
We have explained that when the Bible says God is not a respecter of persons, this means He does not ignore or change His standards for anyone. The Bible teaches that God knows our thoughts and, consequently, our hearts (Proverbs 15:11; 21:2; Matthew 9:4; Mark 2:8).
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What does it mean that God is not a respecter of persons?
We have explained that when the Bible says God is not a respecter of persons, this means He does not ignore or change His standards for anyone. The Bible teaches that God knows our thoughts and, consequently, our hearts (Proverbs 15:11; 21:2; Matthew 9:4; Mark 2:8).
Really? You're just going to skip all that other stuff?? It's okay though...
 

fltom

Well-known member
Really? You're just going to skip all that other stuff?? It's okay though...
Well I am tired but Theo has I believe been misusing that term for quite a long time and I mentioned it to him previously but
he continues that same use

The idea that if God saves those that believe of themselves and does not save those who do not believe of themselves is respect for persons is convoluted

It is using unequal standards because of some sort of favorable bias toward a person unrelated to the standard which is respect of persons

In any case I left most of the discussion for Doug to respond to
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Not because we did it, but because God promised if we believed. It is God's promise that is effectual not our action. Our actions, in themselves, are meaningless.

Doug
Not because we did it but God promised if we did it? Huh?
 
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fltom

Well-known member
Not because we did it but God promised if we did it? Huh?
Huh ?

Is this that foreign to you that this is God plan for salvation

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Huh ?

Is this that foreign to you that this is God plan for salvation

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Yes, there are two things that must happen before salvation: preaching (the gospel) and believing (the gospel). Both of which, are the responsibility of human agents!

Doug
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Huh ?

Is this that foreign to you that this is God plan for salvation

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Shh....let Doug handle it.
 

fltom

Well-known member
So we're supposed to blindly accept that "believing is not meritorious", just because you CLAIM it's not?

From dictionary.com:

Meritorious (adj.)
1. deserving praise, reward, esteem, etc.; praiseworthy:

Sounds PRECISELY how one would describe "faith".



Yes, Paul repeatedly contrasted with works. But the faith Paul spoke of is NOT the same faith Arminians believe in. It is the God-given gift that CAUSES (necessarily) the elect to believe. So you can't appeal to Paul when (IMO) he's not referring to what you believe
Except unconditional election to salvation and necessitated faith are never spoken of in the bible
 
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