Question #6: Is It Necessary To Believe In Trinity To Be Saved?

Hark

Active member
Greetings again Hark,

I deny that the OT appearances were Jesus. I accept that these appearances were Angels representing God.
Then what is Jesus talking about?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life..... 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Regardless of you insisting that He meant "I am he" , He was still testifying that He existed before Abraham for why the Jews attempted to stone Him again for claiming to be God. It seems to me that you are not believing His words for why you do not believe Moses was writing about Him as the God men had seen in the O.T.

I know you have His love in you, so understand that to prove or disprove a theology, it has to align with all of scripture or something is wrong with your theology. If you refuse correction in scripture, then how can one bear more fruit?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Is Jesus not asking us to believe in Him the same way we believe in God?

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Is Jesus not saying He will bring us Home as only God can do?

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Is not Jesus saying He will answer prayers that only God can do?

Is not the name of Jesus to call upon to be saved is the name of God to call upon to be saved?

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

If you claim He meant "I am he" then how do you align the reference above to the reference below to continue denying Jesus is God?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Hark,
Then what is Jesus talking about?
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life..... 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Nearly everything in the Law of Moses pointed forward to Jesus. In Genesis Jesus is the promised seed:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 13:14–15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.


The following speaks directly about the raising up of a prophet like Moses, and this is speaking about Jesus:
Deuteronomy 18:15–18 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Regardless of you insisting that He meant "I am he" , He was still testifying that He existed before Abraham for why the Jews attempted to stone Him again for claiming to be God. It seems to me that you are not believing His words for why you do not believe Moses was writing about Him as the God men had seen in the O.T.
They attempted to stone him because he said that he was in the purpose of God before Abraham, thus making himself to be greater than Abraham and because he rejected their claim to be Abraham's children and because he claimed to be the Christ the Son of God.

Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham came on the scene, refer to Genesis 3:15 above. Abraham foresaw the day of Jesus after he had offered up Isaac.
Genesis 22:14 (KJV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Is Jesus not asking us to believe in Him the same way we believe in God? Is Jesus not saying He will bring us Home as only God can do? Is not Jesus saying He will answer prayers that only God can do? Is not the name of Jesus to call upon to be saved is the name of God to call upon to be saved?
Yes, this is the appointed role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
If you claim He meant "I am he" then how do you align the reference above to the reference below to continue denying Jesus is God?
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
The "I am he" of Isaiah 48:11 has a different context to the three occurrences of "I am he" in John 8. The blind man is not claiming to be Christ or Deity when he used the same words.
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
I will leave the aspect of the first and the last at the moment as it would involve an extensive exposition, based on some concepts that you most probably would not accept.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Hark

Active member
Greetings again Hark,

Nearly everything in the Law of Moses pointed forward to Jesus. In Genesis Jesus is the promised seed:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 13:14–15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
The problem here is connecting what Moses had written to what Jesus has said because of not believing Moses's word, they would not believe His words. The Jews believed in the coming Messiah. They believe in that promised seed. So that cannot be what Jesus was referring to where they did not believe Moses' words whereby they would not believe His words, right?
The following speaks directly about the raising up of a prophet like Moses, and this is speaking about Jesus:
Deuteronomy 18:15–18 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
That has to be applied to all prophets coming after Moses to avoid contacting diviners and such from verses 10-14.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.

This is rightly dividing the word of truth because of what was given to prove afterwards which was not a prophet sent from God.

Deuteronomy 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So applying this to mean solely a prophetic clam towards Christ is not rightly dividing the word of truth here.
They attempted to stone him because he said that he was in the purpose of God before Abraham, thus making himself to be greater than Abraham and because he rejected their claim to be Abraham's children and because he claimed to be the Christ the Son of God.
As for rejecting their claim that they were of Abraham's children because they sought to kill Him, the topic does expound to other truths.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The Father honors Jesus because Jesus is God. Jesus expounds on this truth by how Abraham saw His day and expounded on His claim that the Jews did not believe, by saying He had existed before Abraham; not His purpose, but His existence.
Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham came on the scene, refer to Genesis 3:15 above. Abraham foresaw the day of Jesus after he had offered up Isaac.
Genesis 22:14 (KJV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
The name Jehovajireh means God will provide for His servant. The mount of the Lord is a reminder that this faith in His Providence was seen.

There is nothing in scripture testifying how Abraham foresaw that event specifically as a shadow of what was to come in Christ. Of all times for him to know this would be when God had spoken to him on the mount, sparing his son.
Yes, this is the appointed role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Explain how those 2 scriptural references do not oppose your theology that Jesus is not God.
The "I am he" of Isaiah 48:11 has a different context to the three occurrences of "I am he" in John 8. The blind man is not claiming to be Christ or Deity when he used the same words.
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
I will leave the aspect of the first and the last at the moment as it would involve an extensive exposition, based on some concepts that you most probably would not accept.

Kind regards
Trevor
Since the first and the last is giving reference to Jesus saying " I am he" where that it is not the same as the blind man's "I am he" when a question was put to him, it would take some side-stepping along with a sing and dance number to explain that one away.

Or you can read His words as is and accept that Jesus is God even though you cannot understand that. Be as a child & just take Him at His word.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Hark,
The problem here is connecting what Moses had written to what Jesus has said because of not believing Moses's word, they would not believe His words. The Jews believed in the coming Messiah. They believe in that promised seed. So that cannot be what Jesus was referring to where they did not believe Moses' words whereby they would not believe His words, right?
There is no hint that Jesus was claiming to be the Angel or Divine representative that appeared to Abraham and Moses and spoke to them. This is a far greater stretch of the imagination. Yes, they believed in the coming Messiah, but rejected what Moses taught concerning the Messiah as Jesus fulfilled what Moses taught and typified and they rejected Jesus.
So applying this to mean solely a prophetic clam towards Christ is not rightly dividing the word of truth here.
Moses records God's words that there would be a prophet that would come who God would raise up who would be like God and like Moses. Hence this particular prophet would NOT be God. The Pharisees asked John if he was that prophet. They were not sure if that prophet would also be the Christ, so they asked him both whether he was Christ or the prophet.
John 1:19-21 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
This is also part of what Moses taught concerning Jesus, as he is "that prophet".
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
The Father honors Jesus because Jesus is God.
It does not say that God honours Jesus because Jesus is God. Jesus is honoured because he is the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus expounds on this truth by how Abraham saw His day and expounded on His claim that the Jews did not believe, by saying He had existed before Abraham; not His purpose, but His existence.
Jesus is before Abraham, not in existence, but in importance, priority, in the purpose of God. The Jews deliberately distorted his statement about Abraham foreseeing the day of the Messiah.
There is nothing in scripture testifying how Abraham foresaw that event specifically as a shadow of what was to come in Christ. Of all times for him to know this would be when God had spoken to him on the mount, sparing his son.
Abraham foresaw that what was enacted in the Mount would be fulfilled in God's provision in the sacrifice and resurrection of the seed of promise.
Genesis 22:14 (KJV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Explain how those 2 scriptural references do not oppose your theology that Jesus is not God.
Jesus has been exalted to become both Lord and Christ Acts 2:36, and this is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to glory of God the Son, or to the Trinity, both of which do not exist.
Since the first and the last is giving reference to Jesus saying " I am he" where that it is not the same as the blind man's "I am he" when a question was put to him, it would take some side-stepping along with a sing and dance number to explain that one away.
When Jesus says "I am he" in John 8:24,28,58 he is claiming to be the Christ, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Hark

Active member
Greetings again Hark,
greetings again, TrevorL,
There is no hint that Jesus was claiming to be the Angel or Divine representative that appeared to Abraham and Moses and spoke to them. This is a far greater stretch of the imagination. Yes, they believed in the coming Messiah, but rejected what Moses taught concerning the Messiah as Jesus fulfilled what Moses taught and typified and they rejected Jesus.
Jesus said "46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

That puts a entirely different spin from your singular application. They did not believe the words of Moses for why they did not believe His words. So unless you can come up with another application for what He meant by that, I see the Jews having a hard time believing that men had seen the Lord, let alone Abraham, for why they do not believe Jesus was the Lord men had seen in the O.T. including Abraham.
Moses records God's words that there would be a prophet that would come who God would raise up who would be like God and like Moses. Hence this particular prophet would NOT be God. The Pharisees asked John if he was that prophet. They were not sure if that prophet would also be the Christ, so they asked him both whether he was Christ or the prophet.
John 1:19-21 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
This is also part of what Moses taught concerning Jesus, as he is "that prophet"
What do you think on this article? Jesus Is More Than A Prophet
.

It does not say that God honours Jesus because Jesus is God. Jesus is honoured because he is the Christ, the Son of God.
It is the way Jesus said it in the end... 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: If the Father honors the Son, and yet they would acknowledge that the Father is God, what does that make Jesus being honored by God? Answer God
Jesus is before Abraham, not in existence, but in importance, priority, in the purpose of God. The Jews deliberately distorted his statement about Abraham foreseeing the day of the Messiah.
I am sure that can be explained easily that way in scripture as you have said it, but the Jews understood Jesus plainly enough that He was referring to Abraham having seen Him and indeed, He claimed He was before Abraham, signifying that He is God for that to be true and why the Jews sought to stone Him again..
Abraham foresaw that what was enacted in the Mount would be fulfilled in God's provision in the sacrifice and resurrection of the seed of promise.
Genesis 22:14 (KJV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
That was never explained as such from Abraham for why he named that place for how His provision shall be remembered to have been seen.
Jesus has been exalted to become both Lord and Christ Acts 2:36, and this is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to glory of God the Son, or to the Trinity, both of which do not exist.
John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

The existence of the Holy Spirit as being separate from Himself by referring to the Spirit as He and Him and separate from the father as sending Him as promised at our salvation to fulfill the role as Comforter & bringing into remembrance all things Jesus has taught us as He can be grieved does testify to Him as existing as separate and yet One with the Triune God.

John 14: 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Verse 7 belongs in scripture because that is how verse 9 can be read as true for how can the Witness of the One Person God be greater than the witness of men on the earth when the father needs another Witness for His words to be true as proven by His words?

John 8: 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

As God requires of man to establish a testimony or to judge any one, so does God do.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

That is why the request to create man in our image and after or likeness is the Word of God asking the father for permission to do so as the One God with the Spirit of God in agreement. The same goes for the request to go down & scatter the people from the tower of Babel as the request was made to the Father & when the Father agreed, as the Spirit of God was in agreement, the Lord did it as the One God. That is how His word is true when God made the request to none other than to within the One God for how only the One God responded in scripture. God is not a One Person God for then He could not establish a testimony nor judge any one or people. That is how in 1 John 5:9 that God's witness from heaven is greater than the witness of many men on earth.

When Jesus says "I am he" in John 8:24,28,58 he is claiming to be the Christ, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
But in relations to the Lord God saying He is the first and the last?

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.....14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The plainness of scripture identifies Jesus as God the Creator as only God the Creator can be our Redeemer.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Hark,
Jesus said "46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
That puts a entirely different spin from your singular application. They did not believe the words of Moses for why they did not believe His words. So unless you can come up with another application for what He meant by that, I see the Jews having a hard time believing that men had seen the Lord, let alone Abraham, for why they do not believe Jesus was the Lord men had seen in the O.T. including Abraham.
I gave a singular application, but the writings of Moses taught many lessons concerning Jesus and his ministry and his death and resurrection and his future kingdom.
Luke 24:25–27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
What do you think on this article? Jesus Is More Than A Prophet
I suggest that it is a very poorly written and poorly reasoned article. Even the English needs to be edited. Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, superior to any of the Prophets, superior to any of the Priests and superior to any of the Kings. Preeminently He is the Son of God and therefore of higher birth and character than any of mankind, but he is also A Prophet, A Priest and A King, and instead of being anointed by oil as in OT times, He was anointed by the Holy Spirit at his baptism and He has been raised from the dead by God His Father and is now immortal. Yes Jesus is greater than the prophets of the OT, but He is not God the Son. He is the Son of God, the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.
It is the way Jesus said it in the end... 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: If the Father honors the Son, and yet they would acknowledge that the Father is God, what does that make Jesus being honored by God? Answer God
No, Jesus is honoured by God.
I am sure that can be explained easily that way in scripture as you have said it, but the Jews understood Jesus plainly enough that He was referring to Abraham having seen Him and indeed, He claimed He was before Abraham, signifying that He is God for that to be true and why the Jews sought to stone Him again..
No, they deliberately distorted what he said, and tried to stir up the crowd against him.
That was never explained as such from Abraham for why he named that place for how His provision shall be remembered to have been seen.
Abraham understood that the true burnt offering that was needed to save mankind and bring resurrection would one day be seen in Mount Moriah.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Verse 7 belongs in scripture because that is how verse 9 can be read as true for how can the Witness of the One Person God be greater than the witness of men on the earth when the father needs another Witness for His words to be true as proven by His words?
1 John 5:7 is recognised as spurious even by most Trinitarian scholars and translations. I have run out of time and will leave the rest. The concept of the first and last needs an explanation consistent with understanding the Yahweh Name, and I have a separate thread on this subject.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Hark

Active member
Greetings again Hark,

I gave a singular application, but the writings of Moses taught many lessons concerning Jesus and his ministry and his death and resurrection and his future kingdom.
Luke 24:25–27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
All things concerning Himself rather than His purpose. Scripture does testify of Jesus Christ in the O.T. as the God men had seen in the O.T.
I suggest that it is a very poorly written and poorly reasoned article. Even the English needs to be edited. Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, superior to any of the Prophets, superior to any of the Priests and superior to any of the Kings. Preeminently He is the Son of God and therefore of higher birth and character than any of mankind, but he is also A Prophet, A Priest and A King, and instead of being anointed by oil as in OT times, He was anointed by the Holy Spirit at his baptism and He has been raised from the dead by God His Father and is now immortal. Yes Jesus is greater than the prophets of the OT, but He is not God the Son. He is the Son of God, the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.
Jesus's reference to the Father in the miracles that were done by and through Him was to testify that He is God as well.
No, Jesus is honoured by God.
And why would God do that unless Jesus is God?
No, they deliberately distorted what he said, and tried to stir up the crowd against him.
Christ, the Son of the living God was the question put to Him for which He expounded on as being at the right hand of God which scripture says there is no one beside Him, thus His alluding that He and the Father are One God should be revealing enough for you to see plainly.
Abraham understood that the true burnt offering that was needed to save mankind and bring resurrection would one day be seen in Mount Moriah.
I believe Abraham was only talking about having seen his faith in God's Providence there. That is what James was talking about in James 2nd chapter when referring to that event when rebuking the church for not leading example when they voice faith in God's Providence to the poor by meeting the immediate need of the poor after church service from the bounty collected at church service, showing that faith that what remains, God has provided for the church to run on till next week. That faith in God's Providence needs to be seen by the church in the eyes of the poor or otherwise the church's faith in God's Providence was dead in the eyes of the poor for why that faith will not profit nor save the poor at all.
1 John 5:7 is recognised as spurious even by most Trinitarian scholars and translations. I have run out of time and will leave the rest. The concept of the first and last needs an explanation consistent with understanding the Yahweh Name, and I have a separate thread on this subject.

Kind regards
Trevor
Seeing how the false charge of adding to the Book of 1 John by Erasmus under protest, has been proven by the list of extra-biblical evidence proving that 1 John 5:7 has been originally scripture going as far back as 250 A.D. is why you need to readdress that matter with Jesus Christ.

Only God answers prayers for how the Father is glorified in the Son for answers to prayers per John 14:13-14.

Only God judges for why the Father judges no man and why we will be judged by the Son per John 5:22-23 & Hebrews 4:12-16.

Since God as Saviour will not share His glory with any other and yet Jesus is the Saviour is why Jesus is God of the Triune God as well.

Thanks for sharing in the discussion anyway, but the call to lean on Jesus Christ to help us prove everything by everyone, even ourselves, is the message for how we are to follow & abide in Him daily to avoid bearing false witness of Him by denying His deity & being at risk of dying in sin.
 
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Saxon

Member
"The thief on cross did not understand doctrine of trinity but he was still saved by Jesus Christ. I doubt thief knew anything about theology; but Jesus Christ said thief would meet him in paradise," - David Edward Oliver

Acts 16:29-31
Authorized (King James) Version
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.​


That seems to answer the question. We now go on to maturity.
 
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