Theo1689
Well-known member
Nope.
Our only leader is Jesus Christ.
And my prayer is that you will one day come to know Him, instead of constantly obsessing over "Calvin".
Question about forum interaction
- Thread starter His clay
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Nope.
Our only leader is Jesus Christ.
And my prayer is that you will one day come to know Him, instead of constantly obsessing over "Calvin".
Theophilus
Well-known member
You are a Calvinist right ? The founder of the belief system is Calvin like Lutherans its Luther and Arminians it’s Arminius. Since none of those groups are in agreement it’s not the Bible but the men those religions have as their founders. You can deny it all you want. So many claim Jesus as their Lord and Jesus tells them depart from Me I never knew you. Matt 7:21-23.
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Tertiumquid
Well-known member
I have a question for clarification of what you're implying here... it isn't intended to be a "gotcha!" question or an invitation to trade jabs back and forth.
If the groups you mention above "are not in agreement" and therefore are told to "depart" by Jesus, where (and who!) exactly are those people that are not told to depart that are in agreement with each other? I'm genuinely curious how you would answer this question.
Thanks.
David1701
Well-known member
As you have been told, many times, Calvin is NOT the founder of what you call "Calvinism"! That appellation was invented by a Lutheran, who, presumably, wanted to pin the doctrines of grace on a man, so that he would not have to deal with the Bible.
Yes, many professing Christians will be told to depart from Jesus, because he never knew them. I hope that you are not one of those...
Theo1689
Well-known member
More worthless "guilt by association".
Calvinists don't follow Calvin.
Lutherans don't follow Luther.
Arminians don't follow Arminius.
Wesleyans don't follow Wesley.
Augustinians don't follow Augustine.
They all follow JESUS CHRIST, to the best of their understanding.
The labels are simply a convenient way of quickly understanding where they are coming from theologically.
And yes, Jesus will take those who constantly attack and insult the children of God, and say to them, "Depart from me, I never knew you".
Theophilus
Well-known member
False since all the above have a much different soteriology and systematic theology they follow their leader and founder, not Jesus otherwise they would all be in agreement and be as one as Jesus told the disciples who were all in one accord.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Being late to a discussion is not a problem for me. I welcome the interaction (generally speaking).
I'll divide my response into three parts. First, I'll address the "first Jesus" approach. Second, the Matthew 10 passage requires attention. Third, I'll seek to consider your thoughts on Titus 3. These three sections loosely follow the thought flow of your post, quoted above.
The Jesus First Approach
I call the section that because christ_undivided (Hereafter will be abbreviated as CU) expressed the idea of "first thoughts" going toward what Jesus said and did. Certainly, we can point to a high Christology.
-He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature . . . (Heb 1:3a ESV)
-Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9 ESV)
-But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:17-18 ESV)
-Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58 ESV)
We may certainly conclude that Jesus was the Word, who was with God, and was God. The deity of Christ, the Word of God incarnate, is important and heightens His words and deeds. CU is not wrong to put Jesus on a high level.
However, we also have to agree with another key passage.
-All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Tim 3:16-17 ESV)
Hence, when considering the word of God from Jesus and the words from God given in scripture, there is no priority. Both are from God. So, I love the sentiment that exalts Jesus, but I disagree if this sentiment creates a higher cannon within the cannon of Scripture.
Matthew 10:34-39 Passage
First of all, I largely agree with what you are saying regarding this passage. I agree with your statement about not coming for peace but rather a sword. Although, I think that your use of the word, "insisted," is overplayed; but that is a semantic quibble. I also agree with your comment about truth causing division; we can easily point out Jesus speaking on several occasions. He utters truth, and His opponents pick up stones to stone Him. I also agree with giving others some latitude to be wrong. Patience and kindness are certainly virtues that we need to practice.
Second, one needs to contextually place Jesus comments. Jesus was not coming as the conquering king that so many expected; rather, He came as the suffering servant. As Matthew 1:21 states, ". . . He will save His people from their sins." Jesus was not there conquer and thus create the kind of peace that many assumed. His goal was to be the way, the truth, and the life apart from which no come can come to the Father. His very goal and mission was exclusive in the sense of being polarizing, between the lost and the saved.
Many have experienced this polarizing effect. People who become Christians in Islamic countries experience Jesus' words first hand. Many are ostracized by their families, and some are martyred for their faith. I won't belabor the point here, for many examples could be added. The gospel is certainly exclusive, and the Matthew 10 passage points out how being a disciple of Jesus divides.
Further, we can see from the passage that Jesus demands radical allegiance, above all others. We can again point to a high Christology at the point. God does not want idolaters. He wants those who will love Him with all their being and love their neighbor as themselves.
Finally, while I appreciate CU bringing up this passage, I warn against seeing this passage as somehow being in competition with the Titus 3 passage. The Matthew passage is addressing the polarizing nature of being a disciple of Jesus and not being a disciple of Jesus. The issue is saved vs unsaved. The Titus 3 passage is addressing those who claim to be Christians (i.e. disciples of Christ). I am against the possibility of conflating different issues into the same. Hence, it is important to see each passage in its context, as addressing different issues and audiences.
Titus 3 Passage
In post 146, I outlined a great deal more context with regard to this passage. I strongly recommend reading the post to fully follow what I write here. The passage is addressing those who claim to be believers (v8 "those who have believed in God"). Paul does want them to be profitable (v8) rather than unprofitable, foolish, and worthless (v9). Highly simplified, after 1 or 2 warnings, Paul wants them to avoid certain topics and avoid a divisive person, whose character is clearly sinful (v11).
However, now I need to consider your words and thoughts about the passage. CU stated, "We can safely conclude that it is not peace that is sought in Titus 3." First, Titus 3 is not addressing the same issue that Jesus was addressing in Matthew 10. Certainly, it is true that Titus 3 does not contradict Mt 10, but we must be very careful not to ignore the difference of context and content of each message. Second, because Titus 3 does not address the issue, and because an authors actual words indicate what he intends to communicate, then it follows that Paul did not seek to address the Matt10 issue of peace. Again, authorial intent is established by the author's actual words; those words need to be the exegete's focus.
CU also stated, "I have noticed that many Christian try to use Titus 3 as a means to "shutdown" a conversation." The typical quality of discussion in this forum is utterly abysmal. I mean this with reference to the quality of argumentation, and I especially mean this with reference to many of the back and forth exchanges that take place. These are marked by a massive lack of listening, a willingness of straw man the opposing arguments even after many corrections, arbitrary accusations, trolling tactics, and the list goes on and on. If anything, people need to "shutdown" the discussion a LOT sooner. Further, as certain posters have demonstrated repeated, blatantly sinful tactics in their postings, I think that many here need to take this passage a lot more seriously than they do.
I would be overstating my case if I did not address the following quote. CU states that there are "plenty of situations where there is no one in the conversation really looking to know the Truth." I agree.
I've tried very hard to point to a very important distinction. We have the truth each of us seeks to proclaim. We think that we are right. Hence, we have debates. However, this does not mean that we can use any and all sort of immoral means to win. This is not what contending for the truth can possibly mean. The end of good doctrine/truth does not justify abusive and immoral means of communication. It is my hope that people will start to realize that sin is not a justifiable means of contending for the truth.
christ_undivided
Well-known member
Well said.
I would like to clarify that it was not my intent to give the impression that I believed the words of Christ were in opposition/competition with the words of Paul. I did intend to make an argument based upon "rank". I believe there is more weight to be given to the words of Christ than the words of His apostles. When I say "weight", I am not downplay the value of any Inspired words. There will always be a hierarchy within the Scriptures. All Scripture is true but some words are DEPENDENT upon other words to complete understanding. In fact, Jesus witnessed this when He told the Pharisees that they were focused upon less important aspects of the God's teachings to them...
Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Not that all of them are not important. They all serve a purpose. However, just as there is no other foundation that can be laid than that which has been given, Jesus Christ. Let us take care of how we build thereupon.
As much as we try, there will never be peace until the Prince of peace take matters into His own Worthy Hands.