Question about forum interaction

I'm all for people having a difference of opinion. But if somebody's just there to bicker and not to listen or to learn, then I invoke Proverbs 26:4 pretty quickly.
Sounds like a good thing to do. Proverbs 26:4 is an excellent verse on not letting your own conversation/discussion level degrade down to the level of the fool. However, don't forget that 26:5 also exists. And the two verses are deliberately placed together to get the reader to think, "why would the author affirm and deny the same thing?" But after careful consideration, the author is not affirming and denying the "same" thing; for the author is speaking of two ways of approaching the fool.

Thank you for your thought here; it is helpful; for I had not thoroughly considered these verses yet.
 
It can be applicable; if you had Authority; CARM Forums is not the Church. In the Church, you can cast the person out through Church Discipline. Leaving a Poster alone HERE, then taking a step back; makes them THE lone teacher...

Follow your Conscience...
Your post here has provoked a considerable amount of thought. I appreciate it. I started a response earlier, but I deleted it. So let's jump in. Here are a few thoughts.

(1) The issue of authority: If you can point to any location in the book of Titus that might sustain your assumption here, I would like to see it. However, as of yet, I don't see how my lack of authority over others negates God's authority to tell me to do something in the situation described in the op. Further, I don't see how my lack of authority over others would negate my responsibility to obey what God has commanded here in His word. I'll be blunt and to the point. Your statement, "It can be applicable; if you had Authority," is simply unsupported in this biblical context, and until it is supported in this biblical context I will have to obey scripture over an unsupported assumption.

(2) "CARM Forums is not the Church." This is certainly true; for atheists, pagan religions, and heretical christianity are represented in the forums. My opinion is that true Christians are a rather small subset of the total number of people who write posts at CARM. However, I'm basing that on my limited exposure and experience in the forum; it is not some kind of tested and rigorously worked through opinion.

(3) The next statement brings up the church based authority of "Church Discipline." This connects to both points 1 and 2. The problem here is that I just don't see the authority to practice church discipline as a prerequisite for obedience to God's commands to the church. For example, children ought to obey their parents (Eph 6:1). Yes, the letter to the Ephesians is written to the church, but I don't see Christian parents able to say. Well, we're in the middle of switching churches, so kids, you are obligated to obey us, because the church cannot practice church discipline upon you. Again, (Eph 5:22) wives are commanded to submit to their own husbands, as to the Lord. This isn't something that goes by the wayside if the married couple is, for example, in the middle of moving due to the husband's military activity. He is being stationed at a new location, and the family is having to move. So because they are out from being in a church at the new location, then the wife can say that she is no longer obligated to submit to her husband, and she takes the kids and moves back to a location closer to her parents and family.

No, what I see is that if you believe yourself to be a Christian, and you take your walk with the Lord seriously, then you will want to obey God's commands. There is no prerequisite of possessing church discipline authority that enables our obligation to follow the commands of Ephesians and Titus.

(4) Now, we encounter a good practical thought. "Leaving a Poster alone HERE, then taking a step back; makes them THE lone teacher." This is definitely a consideration. It is very practical. What you are saying here is that if I follow through with the one or two warnings, and cease interaction, then I am empowering the other person to be the lone voice, and the poster's false teaching will rule the day. Again, I see the problem that you are seeing as well. It is a very clear problem from a practical standpoint. It seems like one is abandoning truth to be forever obfuscated by error.

However, I would suggest a flip side. My standard needs to be God, His word, and I need to be following His commands. Sometimes, (not always) God's commands seem counterintuitive from what appears to be practically warranted. The Abrahamic narrative is loaded with these examples, so I'll raise four. The practical move would be for Abraham to stay in a position of security and with family, but God calls him to leave his homeland and family and go toward an uncertain future. Second, Abraham legitimately feared for his life (twice) because of the beauty of his wife, and so he employed conventional wisdom for self-preservation and said that Sarai was his sister. However, this directly contradicted God's goal of having Abram's offspring through Sarai to fulfill God promise, and so the Egyptians were twice enveloped in problems stemming from Abraham's lack of faith. Third, the elephant in the room of the Abrahamic narrative is that Abram/Abraham and Sarai/Sarah were catastrophically too old to have children, and so it seems practically wise to have a child by proxy. After all, why keep waiting and thus ensuring the deadness of both Abram and Sarai reproductively? It seems like a wise plan of action, practically speaking. However, the plan flopped for it did not truly consider who God was, and His fidelity to His own promise, as well as God's sovereignty over life itself. Fourth, I do believe that Abraham finally got it, after repeated failures, disbelief, and arguments with God. He finally got the fact that God was truly committed to fulfilling His promise, and that this promised entailed God's sovereignty over life. By the time that we hit Genesis 22, Abraham had been through a lot, but then God tests Abraham. God Himself is now an obstacle to the fulfillment to His own promise, for God commanded that Abraham sacrifice his son. How on earth is Isaac, the son that God has already said was the one, how on earth is Isaac going to fulfill anything if he is dead? Again, that the question that conventional wisdom would say, but God had already made clear that He was going to fulfill His promise through repeated affirmations of the same promises. God has already made clear that it would definitely be through Isaac, and no one else. God had already worked a miracle upon the deadness of both Abraham and Sarah, and God had even changed their names in keeping with His promise. God even got the last laugh over both Abraham and Sarah, after they both laughed; for God named the child lsaac (laughter) as a statement that contradicted their parent's unbelief. And we know the rest of the story, Abraham obeyed what seemed counterintuitive, and God provided Himself a substitutionary ram (i.e. who took Isaac's place, 22:13).

The examples given above are a rather small sampling. Time after time after time we see situations and narratives that detail the same thing. Conventional wisdom is sometimes counterintuitive from what God commands. So my response is rather simple. I need to follow God's commands. I need to follow the wisdom of one of the spies, and see God's power over the people of the promised land as more than capable of getting His people to the land of promise, rather than being man-centered upon the people's lack of power to accomplish the takeover of the land.

So yes, it seems like stepping back would only empower false teachers to spread false doctrine, but what about the positives of what happens when I use God's time (redeeming the time, for the days are evil) doing other productive things? Have you considered the flip side of what good might happen by limiting one's time? After all, it isn't really about my power to accomplish anything is it? God will build His church, and He has chosen to utilize the means of Christian proclamation of the gospel and the building up of the body of Christ. Therefore, I'm content to obey His word and leave the results up to Him; my focus is obedience and faith in Him. God can certainly counteract what may seem counterintuitive (How counterintuitive do you think it is to walk around Jericho 7 times as a war strategy?).

(5) Lastly, I appreciate your call to follow my conscience. And as we both know, the conscience needs to be informed and determined by scripture. Guilt trips and false sensitivities take place when people's consciences are governed by unbiblical morals and standards. So, I can greatly appreciate your post in this regard. At the end of the day, I appreciate your post. You have given some good food for thought, and I hope that I've properly considered what you wrote. Thanks again.
 
Your post here has provoked a considerable amount of thought. I appreciate it. I started a response earlier, but I deleted it. So let's jump in. Here are a few thoughts.

(1) The issue of authority: If you can point to any location in the book of Titus that might sustain your assumption here, I would like to see it. However, as of yet, I don't see how my lack of authority over others negates God's authority to tell me to do something in the situation described in the op. Further, I don't see how my lack of authority over others would negate my responsibility to obey what God has commanded here in His word. I'll be blunt and to the point. Your statement, "It can be applicable; if you had Authority," is simply unsupported in this biblical context, and until it is supported in this biblical context I will have to obey scripture over an unsupported assumption.

(2) "CARM Forums is not the Church." This is certainly true; for atheists, pagan religions, and heretical christianity are represented in the forums. My opinion is that true Christians are a rather small subset of the total number of people who write posts at CARM. However, I'm basing that on my limited exposure and experience in the forum; it is not some kind of tested and rigorously worked through opinion.

(3) The next statement brings up the church based authority of "Church Discipline." This connects to both points 1 and 2. The problem here is that I just don't see the authority to practice church discipline as a prerequisite for obedience to God's commands to the church. For example, children ought to obey their parents (Eph 6:1). Yes, the letter to the Ephesians is written to the church, but I don't see Christian parents able to say. Well, we're in the middle of switching churches, so kids, you are obligated to obey us, because the church cannot practice church discipline upon you. Again, (Eph 5:22) wives are commanded to submit to their own husbands, as to the Lord. This isn't something that goes by the wayside if the married couple is, for example, in the middle of moving due to the husband's military activity. He is being stationed at a new location, and the family is having to move. So because they are out from being in a church at the new location, then the wife can say that she is no longer obligated to submit to her husband, and she takes the kids and moves back to a location closer to her parents and family.

No, what I see is that if you believe yourself to be a Christian, and you take your walk with the Lord seriously, then you will want to obey God's commands. There is no prerequisite of possessing church discipline authority that enables our obligation to follow the commands of Ephesians and Titus.

(4) Now, we encounter a good practical thought. "Leaving a Poster alone HERE, then taking a step back; makes them THE lone teacher." This is definitely a consideration. It is very practical. What you are saying here is that if I follow through with the one or two warnings, and cease interaction, then I am empowering the other person to be the lone voice, and the poster's false teaching will rule the day. Again, I see the problem that you are seeing as well. It is a very clear problem from a practical standpoint. It seems like one is abandoning truth to be forever obfuscated by error.

However, I would suggest a flip side. My standard needs to be God, His word, and I need to be following His commands. Sometimes, (not always) God's commands seem counterintuitive from what appears to be practically warranted. The Abrahamic narrative is loaded with these examples, so I'll raise four. The practical move would be for Abraham to stay in a position of security and with family, but God calls him to leave his homeland and family and go toward an uncertain future. Second, Abraham legitimately feared for his life (twice) because of the beauty of his wife, and so he employed conventional wisdom for self-preservation and said that Sarai was his sister. However, this directly contradicted God's goal of having Abram's offspring through Sarai to fulfill God promise, and so the Egyptians were twice enveloped in problems stemming from Abraham's lack of faith. Third, the elephant in the room of the Abrahamic narrative is that Abram/Abraham and Sarai/Sarah were catastrophically too old to have children, and so it seems practically wise to have a child by proxy. After all, why keep waiting and thus ensuring the deadness of both Abram and Sarai reproductively? It seems like a wise plan of action, practically speaking. However, the plan flopped for it did not truly consider who God was, and His fidelity to His own promise, as well as God's sovereignty over life itself. Fourth, I do believe that Abraham finally got it, after repeated failures, disbelief, and arguments with God. He finally got the fact that God was truly committed to fulfilling His promise, and that this promised entailed God's sovereignty over life. By the time that we hit Genesis 22, Abraham had been through a lot, but then God tests Abraham. God Himself is now an obstacle to the fulfillment to His own promise, for God commanded that Abraham sacrifice his son. How on earth is Isaac, the son that God has already said was the one, how on earth is Isaac going to fulfill anything if he is dead? Again, that the question that conventional wisdom would say, but God had already made clear that He was going to fulfill His promise through repeated affirmations of the same promises. God has already made clear that it would definitely be through Isaac, and no one else. God had already worked a miracle upon the deadness of both Abraham and Sarah, and God had even changed their names in keeping with His promise. God even got the last laugh over both Abraham and Sarah, after they both laughed; for God named the child lsaac (laughter) as a statement that contradicted their parent's unbelief. And we know the rest of the story, Abraham obeyed what seemed counterintuitive, and God provided Himself a substitutionary ram (i.e. who took Isaac's place, 22:13).

The examples given above are a rather small sampling. Time after time after time we see situations and narratives that detail the same thing. Conventional wisdom is sometimes counterintuitive from what God commands. So my response is rather simple. I need to follow God's commands. I need to follow the wisdom of one of the spies, and see God's power over the people of the promised land as more than capable of getting His people to the land of promise, rather than being man-centered upon the people's lack of power to accomplish the takeover of the land.

So yes, it seems like stepping back would only empower false teachers to spread false doctrine, but what about the positives of what happens when I use God's time (redeeming the time, for the days are evil) doing other productive things? Have you considered the flip side of what good might happen by limiting one's time? After all, it isn't really about my power to accomplish anything is it? God will build His church, and He has chosen to utilize the means of Christian proclamation of the gospel and the building up of the body of Christ. Therefore, I'm content to obey His word and leave the results up to Him; my focus is obedience and faith in Him. God can certainly counteract what may seem counterintuitive (How counterintuitive do you think it is to walk around Jericho 7 times as a war strategy?).

(5) Lastly, I appreciate your call to follow my conscience. And as we both know, the conscience needs to be informed and determined by scripture. Guilt trips and false sensitivities take place when people's consciences are governed by unbiblical morals and standards. So, I can greatly appreciate your post in this regard. At the end of the day, I appreciate your post. You have given some good food for thought, and I hope that I've properly considered what you wrote. Thanks again.
Good post, I appreciate the candor.

On the issue of a (false) teacher being left alone makes them the lone teacher is a bit of a faux pas. They are being engaged all day long with others who will argue with them. No worries there, they are being fed, and opposed.

That said, few will obey the Biblical mandates to mark and avoid, not give what is holy to them, reject them &c.

Also, nothing in these texts concern themselves with worry over leaving them alone to teach or behave poorly. I suppose Christ doesn't want us to think we should babysit them.

Of course we can't force false teachers, and/or those who merely behave poorly to discontinue their path, but we can obey Christ. I'd say He's got the rest of it.

Just today, maybe yesterday, one of those to be avoided presented to me the taunt that "I avoid answering his OP's all day long." He's correct. I am under no obligation to answer and be drawn away from obeying what I know to be correct; obeying Christ. As a side note, it really doesn't accomplish a thing to engage, it is repetition ad nauseam. It has gone that way for years, the same exact things repeated over and over. In observing this behavior, one must consider their own sanity, and the time spent. Neither one of these things are worth compromising. I think a Biblical case can be made for this. For instance? Proverbs is a good start. I always tell our daughter that in it she will find friends, fools, and foes. I think that says enough.

I will however answer once in awhile albeit indirectly. But all day long, back and forth and directly? No, that to me is not only disobedience, it isn't wise. Not being bothered with these types does wonders for study, and the soul, as does obeying Scripture.

Thanks for your time. God bless!
 
The truly divisive participants will stand out in their replies and in my case, I have blocked a small number of them permanently because there is nothing edifying in any engagement with them. That small list isn't one sided. The problem I see is that it is very easy to block those who are of an opposing theological persuasion and give a full pass to those you agree with. That itself is divisive and hypocritical. Perhaps the best response is to agree to disagree and let your opponent tear their their own clothes and throw dust in the air all by themselves.
This is the reason why I sought, in the opening post, to highlight that I was not aiming for theological persuasion but rather the immoral tactics of dialogue. Some are of the impression (regardless of the side) that any and all means are justified to arrive at a good theological end. However this is simply not true. The morality of how we discuss is not a side issue next to the truth that we seek to proclaim. A good end (proclamation of truth) does not justify evil means (not listening, lying about other's position, etc) in Christianity.

My hope is that we can all at least agree upon the morality of the ground-rules of discussion, since that is a separate issue from the discussion of differing theologies. The main problem with the forum, I'm seeking to address, is that people have abandoned moral conduct of discussion in their goal of proclaiming truth.
 
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I will go through this thread one more time to look for people who have responded. If I have omitted dealing with your post, and you would like to receive my response please let me know by posting and indicating the post # I have missed.
 
The context seems to be Jewish laws; in this forum would that include System of Theology and philosophy?
This response will focus upon two parts of your question. First, the part of your question that focuses upon "System of Theology and philosophy?"
I largely answered this part of your question in the opening post. I will quote the relevant material.

"While the passage itself is fairly specific as to the topics of this divisive person (note v9), are there other biblical criteria that could also be applied to divisiveness? For example, is a person who lies about others, and persists in spite of warnings, a divisive person? Is a slanderer, who persists in spite of warnings, a divisive person? I've listed what I think are the two most common sins in this forum.

Please note that this is largely looking at the passage and asking application questions. I have not pointed out any poster in particular, and I have not pointed fingers at certain theological persuasions. The forums, and the topics therein, are the occasion to bring out the depravity in each of us. Note also, I have no problem with posters who disagree with me, and who are willing to be corrected, for we all are in need at times to receive reprimand. Iron does sharpen iron. Those who have a repentant, teachable spirit are not in the cross-hairs of the "divisive person" scope. My focus is more upon the person who is a habitual, unrepentant liar (straw man after straw man), and my focus is more upon the one who slanders others and even God himself by making false accusations.
"

It is my hope that we can all be in agreement that immoral conversational tactics are clearly wrong. The Bible makes it rather clear in James 1 that would ought to be good listeners who are slow to wrath, slow to speak. This forum regularly demonstrates the exact opposite of James 1:19. Everyone recognizes the importance of stating truth biblically. However, some seem to be perfectly ok with misconstruing and lying about the content of what their opponents say. These two issues present a huge morality issue. Hence, it is the focus of the opening post and this thread that we seek to use godly conversational tactics in our discussions. The end of proclaiming truth and arriving at good doctrine does not justify immoral conversational means. I think that many have completely ignored the morality of conversation, erroneously thinking that the end does justify any and all means.

Second, the opening post asked a question, "While the passage itself is fairly specific as to the topics of this divisive person (note v9), are there other biblical criteria that could also be applied to divisiveness?" You have pointed out that "The context seems to be Jewish laws. . ." I've been pondering this issue, for it is a truly important application issue. And I think that a better consideration of the context of the chapter helps with the application, so I will offer a few thoughts in this regard.

A basic overview of the prior chapter context is in order.
-Godly Christian conduct in light of rulers and authorities (v1-2)
-A God-centered, gospel focus is stated to remind believers of where they were and are in light of God's redemptive acts. (v3-7)
-A Christian is properly gospel-focused and profitable when focused upon v3-7, and when avoiding foolish controversies that distract from v3-7. (v8-11)

I think that verse 8 is critical, as it sets up an important contrast. Paul's readers are reminded of their sinfulness and of God's redemptive work in their lives (3-7). In verse 8 the trustworthy saying is probably referring back to the prior God-centered gospel focus. This prior focus is important "so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people." Paul wants them to be profitable, and he wants them to be careful to devote themselves to good works.

A critical contrast is made that I am going to highlight.

v8 . . . These things are excellent and profitable for people.
v9 But avoid foolish controversies . . . for they are unprofitable and worthless.

The goal here for Paul is that his readers not get sidetracked and thus become unprofitable. The "excellent and profitable" is contrasted with "foolish," "unprofitable," and "worthless" controversies. So yes, the topics listed in verse 9 do distract from the gospel, and they would keep people from being profitable. However, I think that we can now better see Paul's mindset as to what may also be included. The "good work" of v8 definitely include what was stated in v1-2. "Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people." However, this is the third chapter, and a great deal of context happens before chapter three. I'm not going to go through all of the content and context of chapthers one and two, but it is sufficient to note that Paul fills out the meaning of "good works" before arriving at the words in chapter 3. If Paul's key focus is to keep believers focused upon God's redemption of their sinful selves in the gospel, for this trustworthy saying provokes believers to be careful to do what is profitable and excellent, then that which distracts from a God-focused gospel is what Paul calls divisive, and the topics listed in verse 8 are a subset of what distracts. Hence, I think (this is my best attempt at bridging contexts between then and now, for application purposes) this helps us to see the broader picture of what empowers a believer's focus and profitability and what is divisive and to be avoided.
 
Red herring.
I started five threads proving all five points of TULIP from the BIBLE.
And I didn't quote "Augustine" even once.
Er you have but one op in the first two pages but you certainly did not prove Calvinism even in that one
 
not the Gnostics or the Manicheans so none of those writers teach meticulous determination of all things

Isa. 45:7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1Cor. 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

Eph. 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph. 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

So here's a bunch more passages you reject.
So run away, you Bible denier. Run, Forrest, run!
 
Er you have but one op in the first two pages but you certainly did not prove Calvinism even in that one

They're buried on pages 7, 24 and 25. But I don't mind linking to them again:


Now go away and stop pestering me, you Bible denier!
 
They're buried on pages 7, 24 and 25. But I don't mind linking to them again:


Now go away and stop pestering me, you Bible denier!

Btw, the above is how you prove claims you make in the forum.
By providing LINKED QUOTES.
Learn that, and learn that well, you Bible denier.
 
Isa. 45:7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

So where does it state God detemines all things

hint it does not

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Again where is it stated God determines all things for example where does it state god determined all of man's sin
Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Again one instance does not prove all things are determined


Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

A promise concerning those who love god

not a predestination to believe or uncomditional salvationv
1Cor. 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

Nothing there about all things being determined
Eph. 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Predestined the faithful in Christ

nothing there about being predestined to be a believer or unconditionally saved
Eph. 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

So here's a bunch more passages you reject.
So run away, you Bible denier. Run, Forrest, run!
The faithful in Christ are predestined to an inheritance

sorry but there is no proof for Calvinism in any of those verses

and i am not you that i should run
 
Introduction
Earlier today I was reading through Titus 3, and I came across the following passage.

10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. (Titus 3:10-11 ESV)
10 αἱρετικὸν ἄνθρωπον μετὰ μίαν καὶ δευτέραν νουθεσίαν παραιτοῦ,
11 εἰδὼς ὅτι ἐξέστραπται ὁ τοιοῦτος καὶ ἁμαρτάνει ὢν αὐτοκατάκριτος. (Titus 3:10-11 BGT)

My question comes from my very limited forum interaction, and my question comes from the passage quoted above.

Is my forum interaction, with certain posters, biblically warranted?

Personal Forum Interaction
Usually, I tend to give the most divisive 2-3 postings, and sometimes I'll give a poster upwards of up to 7-10 back and forth exchanges. At the end of that time period, if the poster has only dug himself/herself further into a grave with fallacy after fallacy, I usually call it quits. I'll conclude the discussion with a recap of the various fallacies present over the last several posts along with the poster's willingness to persist (often in matters of sin) in the fallacies in spite of their repeated refutation. However, I usually allow more discussion on a different thread with that person following the same pattern.

A Beginning look at verse 10
Unfortunately, my pattern (stated in the above paragraph) is being called into question by the scripture quoted above. A few points need to be observed from the passage.
-"a person who stirs up division" The prior verse (v9) points out a more Jewish aspect of division over the law, genealogies, etc. However, the prior verse (v9) speaks toward certain topics. It is topically focused. In contrast, verse 10 is specifically focused upon "a person." His admonishment concerns a person who stirs up division. Most obviously, this person would be the kind to raise the topics just mentioned (v9), and the person would not just raise them but also persist in them. The main descriptor of the person is that he is divisive. BDAG gives the following definition of the first word (in Greek) αἱρετικὸν "pert. to causing divisions, factions, division-making".

Verse 10 Structure
A pertinent detail of the passage is its structure in Greek. It begins with two words, then a prepositional phrase, then the verb.

Front and center (in Greek word order) is the divisive person. "As for a person who stirs up division"
Then the warnings to the person are stated in the prepositional phrase. "after warning him once and then twice"
The final word of the verse is the imperative/command. "have nothing more to do with him"

Verse 11
The verse opens with a participle, oida. Then appears a hoti clause. The content of the knowledge is made clear. Such a person is perverted/warped/twisted and sins, being self-condemned.

A reader of the passage can note the movement of the passage: unprofitable, foolish, worthless topics (v9), what to do with a divisive person (v10), the immoral character of the divisive person (v11).

Critical Application Questions
While the passage itself is fairly specific as to the topics of this divisive person (note v9), are there other biblical criteria that could also be applied to divisiveness? For example, is a person who lies about others, and persists in spite of warnings, a divisive person? Is a slanderer, who persists in spite of warnings, a divisive person? I've listed what I think are the two most common sins in this forum.

Please note that this is largely looking at the passage and asking application questions. I have not pointed out any poster in particular, and I have not pointed fingers at certain theological persuasions. The forums, and the topics therein, are the occasion to bring out the depravity in each of us. Note also, I have no problem with posters who disagree with me, and who are willing to be corrected, for we all are in need at times to receive reprimand. Iron does sharpen iron. Those who have a repentant, teachable spirit are not in the cross-hairs of the "divisive person" scope. My focus is more upon the person who is a habitual, unrepentant liar (straw man after straw man), and my focus is more upon the one who slanders others and even God himself by making false accusations.

For myself, this passage is calling into question (if is allowed that the divisive person is broader than the topics of verse 9) my willingness to engage divisive people over the span of many postings. If it is true that this is applicable to this forum, then I have been overly kind and patient, for I have gone over the 1-2 warnings stipulated in the passage.

These are my thoughts and musings with the passage. I hope and pray that they provoke good discussion and consideration.

I'm a little late to the OP but I share my thoughts.

When I consider any application concerning "division", my first thoughts go to the question..... "Did Jesus cause division?". This answer is most assuredly, YES. Even, much MORE than division. Jesus INSISTED that He didn't come to grant peace... but rather a sword.

Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Mat 10:36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

We can safely conclude that it is not peace that is sought in Titus 3. It is agreement in the Truth. If Truth causes divisions, so be it. There are many things that we discuss as Christians that are 100 percent settled by the Scriptures. However, we should all allow one another the "latitude" to be wrong.

I have noticed that many Christian try to use Titus 3 as a means to "shutdown" a conversation. While there comes a time when debate is no longer profitable, I don't believe Titus 3 is referencing "contending for the Truth". It is really a matter where "the argument" doesn't matter. Truth be told, there are plenty of situations where there is no one in the conversation really looking to know the Truth.
 
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So where does it state God detemines all things

hint it does not



Again where is it stated God determines all things for example where does it state god determined all of man's sin

Again one instance does not prove all things are determined




A promise concerning those who love god

not a predestination to believe or uncomditional salvationv


Nothing there about all things being determined


Predestined the faithful in Christ

nothing there about being predestined to be a believer or unconditionally saved

The faithful in Christ are predestined to an inheritance

sorry but there is no proof for Calvinism in any of those verses

and i am not you that i should run

<Chuckle>

You remind of the JW's who have to try to explain away all the passages teaching the deity of Christ.

You remind me of the Mormons who have to try to explain away all the monotheism passages.

You remind me of the Romanists who have to try to explain away all the "faith alone" passages.

You have to try to explain away all the "predestined" passages.
More proof that you are a Bible denier.
Now go away, you Bible denier!
 
<Chuckle>

You remind of the JW's who have to try to explain away all the passages teaching the deity of Christ.

You remind me of the Mormons who have to try to explain away all the monotheism passages.

You remind me of the Romanists who have to try to explain away all the "faith alone" passages.

You have to try to explain away all the "predestined" passages.
More proof that you are a Bible denier.
Now go away, you Bible denier!
you remind me of someone who has no real answer for rebuttal so he adopts a false guilt by association ad hominem

why can't you prove your claim?
 
you remind me of someone who has no real answer for rebuttal so he adopts a false guilt by association ad hominem

You mean like you and your heretic buddy do with Gnosticism and Manichaeanism and Maricionism?

You know the "guilt by association" trick very well, don't you?

Now go away, you heretic Bible denier!

why can't you prove your claim?

Because I have no need to.
My claims can be proven in countless commentaries.
But you can't argue with commentaries, or insult them.
That's why you have to try to harass me.
So go away, Bible denier!
 
They're buried on pages 7, 24 and 25. But I don't mind linking to them again:


Now go away and stop pestering me, you Bible denier!
I looked at page 7 and your op assumed total depravity is the same as total inability

a claim which has been disproven many times by scriptures

showing the unregenerate receiving the word of the kingdom with joy Mat 13 parable of the sower

God hardening to prevent belief john 12:40

an affirmation that the unregenerate had they not grown hardened in time and shut their eyes or ears they could have also been saved

examples of those believing temporarily

BTW you had but one response in that op and it was nothing more than a bald denial

you failed to prove your claim
 
So where does it state God detemines all things

hint it does not
Ephesians 1/11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the purpose of His will.

What's included in "all things"?
 
Ephesians 1/11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the purpose of His will.

What's included in "all things"?

Maybe like "all men"? Just saying.... A Calvinist can often ignore the same argument.
 
Ephesians 1/11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the purpose of His will.

What's included in "all things"?
works does not mean determine

rather he works things to an end according to the purpose of his will

it is not the same as determining every step

God had a plan to reach the world through the jews

many however turned out unfaithful so he used their unfaithfulness to accomplish his plan. he did not determine their unfaithfulness
 
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