Question concerning the sheep

dberrie2020

Super Member

Sheep Follow the Shepherd Not Joseph Smith​


Was this the shepherd?

1 Corinthians 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 3:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Philippians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

2 Timothy 3:10--King James Version (KJV)

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Romans 2:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.


So--were the NT Jews making the same claim about the NT apostles?

John 13:20---King James Version
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
 
Was this the shepherd?

1 Corinthians 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 3:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Philippians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

2 Timothy 3:10--King James Version (KJV)

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Romans 2:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.


So--were the NT Jews making the same claim about the NT apostles?

John 13:20---King James Version
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

With all the talk about the sheep--I thought someone would want to engage this, especially with the thought of sheep following the shepherd.

So--was Paul the shepherd?
 
Was this the shepherd?

1 Corinthians 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 3:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Philippians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

2 Timothy 3:10--King James Version (KJV)

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Romans 2:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.


So--were the NT Jews making the same claim about the NT apostles?

John 13:20---King James Version
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

With all the talk about the sheep--I thought someone would want to engage this, especially with the thought of sheep following the shepherd.

So--was Paul the shepherd?
Both the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach Jesus is the shepherd

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
 
Both the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach Jesus is the shepherd

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

I agree--but this wasn't Jesus speaking:

1 Corinthians 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 3:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Philippians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

2 Timothy 3:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Romans 2:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

But you have no problem with that--right? I certainly don't.
 
I agree--but this wasn't Jesus speaking:

1 Corinthians 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 3:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Philippians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

2 Timothy 3:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Romans 2:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

But you have no problem with that--right? I certainly don't.
No problems since The Bible is God's Word
 
No problems since The Bible is God's Word

That's the very point in which the critics here are cornered. It's the very Biblical record which stumps their causes.

I have asked the critics here, on numerous occasions--what do they find in the Biblical NT--which isn't found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Crickets.

I constantly post scriptures which defy the theology claimed by the critics here.

Paul's testimony to follow him-- is one of those scriptures which presents an anomaly to Janice's claim.

Care to address that?
 
That's the very point in which the critics here are cornered. It's the very Biblical record which stumps their causes.

I have asked the critics here, on numerous occasions--what do they find in the Biblical NT--which isn't found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--as far as salvational doctrines go?
The Bible tells us ONE GOD exists while Mormons teach many gods exist
Crickets.

I constantly post scriptures which defy the theology claimed by the critics here.

Paul's testimony to follow him-- is one of those scriptures which presents an anomaly to Janice's claim.

Care to address that?


1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.



2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]



3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.



4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.



5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.



6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.



7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.



8. 1 Chronicles 17:20— O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.



9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.



10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?



11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.



12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.



13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.



14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.



15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.



16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.



17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.



18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.



19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.



20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.



21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.



23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.



24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.



25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.



27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.



28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



Alma 11:

26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29 And he answered, No.



1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.



Book of Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
 
The Bible tells us ONE GOD exists while Mormons teach many gods exist

So--you haven't revealed to us how many gods you believe were involved here:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

John 10:34-35---English Standard Version
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Could you explain that for us?
 
So, you are in agreement that many gods exist. ?
Not the way you define god....for example the gods you speak of are not divine. In fact the ones you seem to inspire to be are associated with idols in 1 Cor 8. Did you notice that...or did your theology not need that portion of the verse?????
 
What is there about the divine council--which one doesn't find divine?


Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
KJV....A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Why did you a mormon drop the KJV? Is that even allowed?

Divine council???? Not in the KJV. I think you might need another verse.

The Syriac version renders it, "in the congregation of angels"; they are mighty, and excel in strength, and there is a large company of them, even an innumerable one, and who surround the throne of the Majesty on high.
 
KJV....A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Why did you a mormon drop the KJV? Is that even allowed?

I chose the ESV for two reasons:

1) It's a modern translation reflecting modern scholarship. (2001)

2) It was created by more than 100 leading evangelical scholars--and endorsed by a number of evangelical leaders.

So, again--what don't you find as divine--concerning the divine council?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:


Nonetheless--if you didn't like that particular translation--then perhaps you would consider these:

Psalm 82:1---International Standard Version
1 God takes his stand in the divine assembly;
among the divine[a] beings[b] he renders judgment:

Psalm 82:1---Modern English Version
1 God stands among the divine council;
He renders judgment among the gods.

Psalm 82:1---Revised Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 
I chose the ESV for two reasons:

1) It's a modern translation reflecting modern scholarship. (2001)

2) It was created by more than 100 leading evangelical scholars--and endorsed by a number of evangelical leaders.

So, again--what don't you find as divine--concerning the divine council?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:


Nonetheless--if you didn't like that particular translation--then perhaps you would consider these:

Psalm 82:1---International Standard Version
1 God takes his stand in the divine assembly;
among the divine[a] beings[b] he renders judgment:

Psalm 82:1---Modern English Version
1 God stands among the divine council;
He renders judgment among the gods.

Psalm 82:1---Revised Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Does this mean divine in the sense of omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent?

Just for the record the KJV says...A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
 
Does this mean divine in the sense of omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent?

Divine usually means deity--in terms of gods.

Psalm 82:1---International Standard Version
1 God takes his stand in the divine assembly;
among the divine beings he renders judgment:

Just for the record the KJV says...A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

What is your evidence the "congregation of the mighty"--and--"divine council"--can't be interchangeable terms?

You still haven't addressed this:

CrowCross said: Not the way you define god....for example the gods you speak of are not divine.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Psalm 82:1---International Standard Version
1 God takes his stand in the divine assembly;
among the divine beings he renders judgment:

Psalm 82:1---Modern English Version
1 God stands among the divine council;
He renders judgment among the gods.

Psalm 82:1---Revised Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 
Divine usually mean deity--in terms of gods.



What is your evidence the "congregation of the mighty"--and--"divine council"--can't be interchangeable terms?

You still haven't addressed this:



Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Psalm 82:1---International Standard Version
1 God takes his stand in the divine assembly;
among the divine[a] beings[b] he renders judgment:

Psalm 82:1---Modern English Version
1 God stands among the divine council;
He renders judgment among the gods.

Psalm 82:1---Revised Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
What does like one of us mean?

Are we omnipotent? Omniscience? Omnipresent?
 
What does like one of us mean?

Are we omnipotent? Omniscience? Omnipresent?

How are you relating that to the addressed point?

CrowCross said:
Not the way you define god....for example the gods you speak of are not divine.

What is there about the divine council--which one doesn't find divine?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 
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