Question for atheists about a hypothetical

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Love does not inflict needless harm, stiggy

Correct. You're getting a lot of stuff right tonight.


Except God NEVER, EVER needs to inflict harm in order to provide for us a greater good

BZZZZZZZZZT! And you were doing so well there.

God can ALWAYS deliver to us the greater good WITHOUT harming us in the process

Correct. Painful loving discipline does not harm us. Hebrews 12:11. You're back on track.

Let me see if I have this straight:

Yeah, let's see You had one good one, one bad one and then another good one. You pattern so far would indicate we're in store for some more bs:

You think that God, from scratch, created the earth AND, to populate the earth; the human race, AND to feed the human race; a whole slew of nourishing crops

EXCELLENT! Two in a row!

, but He is somehow incapable of harvesting, for the human race, righteousness and peace without harming the human race in the process?

BZZZZZZZZZT! Three hits, two outs. You batted .600 on this one. Very good! MVP stats.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
By being God. Try it and see if YOU can do it.
See, there you go again!

"Try and see if YOU can do it"
AKA
Because of the good that God does - it doesn't matter that He also does evil

Free will sinners NEED (there's that word again) lots of remedial harm in their lives. I know I do. Heb 12:11
Says who?

Who says that we {i.e. sinners} need harm?

The one and only place that this dictum could have come from is God and, by your own admission, God is under no requirement to decree anything!

God answers to nothing and no one
{with the exception of His own nature and, perhaps, accommodation of logical consistency - i.e. no square circles}


No, stiggy, when God consciously and purposefully chooses to harm us it is ALWAYS, by definition, needless

And, as always, to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others is immoral
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
See, there you go again!

Lousy Reagan impression. It's "There HE goes again."

"Try and see if YOU can do it"

Is there an echo in here?


Alpha Kappa Alpha? Good sorority. I dated a UGA girl in it when I was in college. Didn't work out. I was a Tech man.

Because of the good that God does - it doesn't matter that He also does evil

Knievel? He created him, yeah, but you misspelled Evel.


Says who?

Which one? Daltrey? Townshend? Entwistle? Moon?

Who says that we {i.e. sinners} need harm?

They ALL say it? Are the Stones also unanimous on this issue?

The one and only place that this dictum could have come from is God and, by your own admission, God is under no requirement to decree anything!

Hallucinating disctums?

God answers to nothing and no one

Correct.

{with the exception of His own nature

God: "Is that you questioning me, Yours Truly's Nature?" LOL

No, stiggy, when God consciously and purposefully chooses to harm us it is ALWAYS, by definition, needless

By definition? Whose? Webster? Funk? Did Wagnall agree?
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Lousy Reagan impression. It's "There HE goes again."



Is there an echo in here?



Alpha Kappa Alpha? Good sorority. I dated a UGA girl in it when I was in college. Didn't work out. I was a Tech man.



Knievel? He created him, yeah, but you misspelled Evel.




Which one? Daltrey? Townshend? Entwistle? Moon?



They ALL say it? Are the Stones also unanimous on this issue?



Hallucinating disctums?



Correct.



God: "Is that you questioning me, Yours Truly's Nature?" LOL



By definition? Whose? Webster? Funk? Did Wagnall agree?
It's obvious that you are either unwilling or incapable of having an actual discussion

I am perilously close to following the lead of Gus
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Where?
Does that include my 310 pound next-door-neighbor whose poor nutrition is due to never eating vegetables, but gorging on Twinkies?
Nothing is God's fault. God doesn't exist. If fault there is, it lies with those who deny that there is anything wrong with anything, because God has provided all we need. Or those who blame people for living in the wrong place. God has done, continues to do and always will do, nothing; because God is a figment of the imagination.
No, it isn't "man" who is to blame. Some people could do more than they do. Some governments are more concerned with their own citizens than with other countries, which is understandable. Some short term solutions have created longer term problems. Climate change doesn't help. Life is complicated. Searching for someone to blame is as pointless, and as stupid as praying to God to sort things out. That is what is obvious.

Now, write these answers down and put them in your handbag, so that you can get them out next time you forget they exist.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Imagine if you will an amnesiac who wakes up in a hotel room and sees the following: a plate of lobster on a table, a lobster bib tied around his neck, a six ounce wine goblet, sitting next to an unopened bottle of his favorite wine next to a corkscrew opener, a bathroom with an electric razor, an itchy four day growth of beard, a key on a coffee table that perfectly fits the hotel room door and a humidor containing a batch of his favorite cigars.

He has no idea how he got into the room, but he concludes that someone, somewhere put him there and most likely someone with a benevolent attitude toward him. Is the amnesiac foolishly involved in wishful thinking, or are his conclusions quite logical?
I know I am coming at this late, but still, I am going to add my own view.

Yes, the amnesiac is foolish. If the person who set him up here had the amnesiac's best interests at heart, the amnesiac would be in a hospital where he could get treated for his condition. The fact that he is not suggests the mystery person wants the amnesiac to have no memory, which in turn indicates some ulterior purpose that benefits the mystery person and not the amnesiac.

It is curious how a Christian seems to be focusing on the material goods - the lobster, the wine - and not thinking about the motives of the mysterious person who provided them...
 

5wize

Well-known member
Imagine if you will an amnesiac who wakes up in a hotel room and sees the following: a plate of lobster on a table, a lobster bib tied around his neck, a six ounce wine goblet, sitting next to an unopened bottle of his favorite wine next to a corkscrew opener, a bathroom with an electric razor, an itchy four day growth of beard, a key on a coffee table that perfectly fits the hotel room door and a humidor containing a batch of his favorite cigars.

He has no idea how he got into the room, but he concludes that someone, somewhere put him there and most likely someone with a benevolent attitude toward him. Is the amnesiac foolishly involved in wishful thinking, or are his conclusions quite logical?
The person would be suffering from the Illusion of the Puddle. Imagine if you will a hole in the ground. It's an irregularly shaped hole with odd angles and creases and random corners. One day it rains and water is everywhere on the ground. Some of it evaporates in the heat and does not survive long, some of it runs this way, and some of it runs that way - the force of gravity acting upon it until its volume spreads out into oblivion..., but some of it randomly finds the hole. The water fills every contour of the hole the way water does. Does that mean the hole was created just for that particular collection of water alone? That particular collection of water took on the hole's shape so perfectly! It's a miracle!!!! Look how well the hole accommodates how the water is now shaped... like the hole was made just for it..... Or did the conditions of the hole actually dictate, allow, and generate the conditions of the shape of the water?

Let me answer for you... it was the latter.
 
Last edited:

5wize

Well-known member
Nah, that was for Jews wandering in the wilderness four or five thousand years ago. Treeplanter is our contemporary and isn't Jewish. He'll have to find a chick some other way.
Your god was for the Jews wandering in the wilderness four or five thousand years ago too.
 

Lucian

Member
Imagine if you will an amnesiac who wakes up in a hotel room and sees the following: a plate of lobster on a table, a lobster bib tied around his neck, a six ounce wine goblet, sitting next to an unopened bottle of his favorite wine next to a corkscrew opener, a bathroom with an electric razor, an itchy four day growth of beard, a key on a coffee table that perfectly fits the hotel room door and a humidor containing a batch of his favorite cigars.

He has no idea how he got into the room, but he concludes that someone, somewhere put him there and most likely someone with a benevolent attitude toward him. Is the amnesiac foolishly involved in wishful thinking, or are his conclusions quite logical?
Given the experience of Clive Wearing, I doubt this hypothetical amnesiac would be concluding anything quite like this. In any case, I also doubt his conclusions are either logical or dependent on wishful thinking.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
I know I am coming at this late, but still, I am going to add my own view.

Yes, the amnesiac is foolish. If the person who set him up here had the amnesiac's best interests at heart, the amnesiac would be in a hospital where he could get treated for his condition.

Nah. Any intelligent amnesiac might figure that whoever put him there, having shown his beneficial nature already, might have needed to go fetch a doctor.

The fact that he is not suggests the mystery person wants the amnesiac to have no memory

Nonsense. That doesn't follow at all. What would be the villain's motive? In fact it requires the absurd assumption that someone either just happened to have stumbled across an amnesiac and hauled him into a hotel room, supplying him with goodies (Why?) or that the false benefactor created the amnesia. But I didn't say anything about the guy finding a bump on his head.

But let's add this;

Our amnesiac finds a piece of paper pinned to the sofa, that says:

"I will return. Everything will be all right."
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
The person would be suffering from the Illusion of the Puddle. Imagine if you will a hole in the ground. It's an irregularly shaped hole with odd angles and creases and random corners. One day it rains and water is everywhere on the ground. Some of it evaporates in the heat and does not survive long, some of it runs this way, and some of it runs that way - the force of gravity acting upon it until its volume spreads out into oblivion..., but some of it randomly finds the hole. The water fills every contour of the hole the way water does. Does that mean the hole was created just for that particular collection of water alone? That particular collection of water took on the hole's shape so perfectly! It's a miracle!!!! Look how well the hole accommodates how the water is now shaped... like the hole was made just for it..... Or did the conditions of the hole actually dictate, allow, and generate the conditions of the shape of the water?

Let me answer for you... it was the latter.

OK, now explain what the hell that has to do with the amnesiac finding the goodies. Identify your analogous correlates.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
The person would be suffering from the Illusion of the Puddle. Imagine if you will a hole in the ground. It's an irregularly shaped hole with odd angles and creases and random corners. One day it rains and water is everywhere on the ground. Some of it evaporates in the heat and does not survive long, some of it runs this way, and some of it runs that way - the force of gravity acting upon it until its volume spreads out into oblivion..., but some of it randomly finds the hole. The water fills every contour of the hole the way water does. Does that mean the hole was created just for that particular collection of water alone? That particular collection of water took on the hole's shape so perfectly! It's a miracle!!!! Look how well the hole accommodates how the water is now shaped... like the hole was made just for it..... Or did the conditions of the hole actually dictate, allow, and generate the conditions of the shape of the water?

Here's C.S. Lewis:

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought.

But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else.

Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Nah. Any intelligent amnesiac might figure that whoever put him there, having shown his beneficial nature already, might have needed to go fetch a doctor.
That is certainly possible, but a long way from assured.

Giving someone who needs medical attention any food is, however, a bad idea, just in case he needs to go under a general anaesthetic. Maybe this mystery man is not so bright?

And he decided to order lobster and wine, and wait for them to arrive, before he went to find a doctor?

Nonsense. That doesn't follow at all.
It is not certain, but it seems likely. Why else who the guy prioritise getting lobster and wine over getting medical advise?

What would be the villain's motive? In fact it requires the absurd assumption that someone either just happened to have stumbled across an amnesiac and hauled him into a hotel room, supplying him with goodies (Why?) or that the false benefactor created the amnesia. But I didn't say anything about the guy finding a bump on his head.
The most likely scenario is the mystery man caused amnesia, but not with a blow to the head, which would be far too unreliable.

But let's add this;

Our amnesiac finds a piece of paper pinned to the sofa, that says:

"I will return. Everything will be all right."
How on earth does that alter the situation? It is clear the mystery man wants the amnesiac to think he is a good guy - but that would be true whether he really was a good guy or not.

This was a villain who slipped the amnesiac a drug to make him forget, and has then gone to the trouble to buy lobster and wine. You think he is not going to add a note?

By the way... what should the amnesiac think when two thousand years later his supposed benefactor has not returned?
 
Top