Question for Catholics about the 4 Marian dogmas

Bonnie

Super Member
Is it true that your church teaches that one must believe these things about Mary in order to be saved? I don't really know, so that is why I am asking. OR has this been "softened" a bit in your church, over the years?

These are the 4 Marian dogmas, aren't they?

1. Mary's IC
2. Mary's PV
3. Mary as mother of God. This is true in one sense, since she is Jesus' mother and Jesus is God, but Catholics mean that she has a special divine role forever as His mother so she can intercede for us.
4. Bodily assumption of Mary into heaven--whether she died and was assumed bodily into heaven or never died, doesn't matter.

I would like a straight answer to this. Is it in the CCC?

Thank you.
 
Last edited:

A new day

Well-known member
There are four Marian (related to Mary) Dogmas. Dogmas are those doctrines of the Church which have been defined by the Pope and the teaching authority of the Church. Dogmas are teaching, or doctrines, of the Church that have been bolded, underlined, and italicized, so to speak. They are proposed for our belief and faithful Catholics are not free to dissent from them

No linking to unofficial Catholic websites allowed--you may quote from them, but then just say where the quotes come from. Linking to Vatican and CCC only are allowed--Moderator
 
Last edited by a moderator:

1Thess521

Well-known member
EDITED--No linking to unofficial Catholic websites allowed. Posters may quote from them, but then just list where they got the quotes from. Direct links to Vatican and CCC only allowed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bonnie

Super Member
I don't need the dogmas to be explained, but wanted to know if the RCC teaches that they must be believed in order to be saved....OR has that stance been softened over the years?
 

tdidymas

Active member
I don't need the dogmas to be explained, but wanted to know if the RCC teaches that they must be believed in order to be saved....OR has that stance been softened over the years?
I'm also wondering how they hold these dogmas, and if the 5th dogma is declared, would they hold that as a salvific obligation also?
 

A new day

Well-known member
I don't need the dogmas to be explained, but wanted to know if the RCC teaches that they must be believed in order to be saved....OR has that stance been softened over the years?
When I started reading the page I linked, it seemed to me, that it is required per the first paragraph of the article. But I thought it might be good to link the article itself, rather than there be a "that isn't true, our church doesn't teach that!" Well, there you are... direct and live, from a catholic site. No ifs, ands, or buts...

from the article itself

There are four Marian (related to Mary) Dogmas. Dogmas are those doctrines of the Church which have been defined by the Pope and the teaching authority of the Church. Dogmas are teaching, or doctrines, of the Church that have been bolded, underlined, and italicized, so to speak. They are proposed for our belief and faithful Catholics are not free to dissent from them.
 

Nondenom40

Well-known member
I don't need the dogmas to be explained, but wanted to know if the RCC teaches that they must be believed in order to be saved....OR has that stance been softened over the years?

That is how Catholics are getting their dogmas. It is a popularity contest. They effectively VOTE on them.

Then they have to go back to find a way to pretend that is what the Apostles had always taught.

It is a sad life of self delusion and deceit.
Thats true. Prior to Ineffibilis Deus, Pius the 9th sent out a letter called Ubi Primum in Feb 2, 1849. Its essentially a popularity poll.
Pius the 12th did the same thing prior to defining marys assumption. He wrote DEIPARAE VIRGINIS MARIAE May 1, 1946. A small excerpt;

"More especially We wish to know if you, Venerable Brethren, with your learning and prudence consider that the bodily Assumption of the Immaculate Blessed Virgin can be proposed and defined as a dogma of faith, and whether in addition to your own wishes this is desired by your clergy and people."

How does this 'revealed' dogma carry the weight of salvation when its basically up to men to give it a thumbs up or down? God didn't ask Moses to take a poll whether the 10 commandments were something they'd consider. He said, here it is tell them to obey.
 

Atemi

Well-known member
How does this 'revealed' dogma carry the weight of salvation when its basically up to men to give it a thumbs up or down?
Of course that is rhetorical, as even the Catholics know this is a sure sign such dogmas did not come from God.

At the same time, however, these same Catholics rush to fill out petitions to have their pet false doctrines declared dogma...by pressuring their bishops and popes.

It is ridiculous, but a form on nonsense that the cult mind is very pleased to participate in.
 

Nondenom40

Well-known member
Of course that is rhetorical, as even the Catholics know this is a sure sign such dogmas did not come from God.

At the same time, however, these same Catholics rush to fill out petitions to have their pet false doctrines declared dogma...by pressuring their bishops and popes.

It is ridiculous, but a form on nonsense that the cult mind is very pleased to participate in.
Right. These popularity polls are the Pope's sticking their fingers in the air to see which way the wind is blowing. Nothing more. Then they have the audacity to say their salvation depends on adhering to a dogma mere men voted to define.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
When I started reading the page I linked, it seemed to me, that it is required per the first paragraph of the article. But I thought it might be good to link the article itself, rather than there be a "that isn't true, our church doesn't teach that!" Well, there you are... direct and live, from a catholic site. No ifs, ands, or buts...

from the article itself
NOT free to dissent from them, but it doesn't say that Catholics MUST believe them in order to be saved. I just wondered if the RCC truly teaches that about these 4 Marian dogmas. If so, I would like to see where that is in Scripture.
 

balshan

Well-known member
catechism
499
The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".

491

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

966

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

967
she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972
After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints," the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.



In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.

IN BRIEF
973
By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).
 

mica

Well-known member
catechism
499
The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".

491

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

966

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

967
she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972
After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints," the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.



In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.

IN BRIEF
973
By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).
basically all of that tells me 1 thing - the rcc is Mary's church, it is not His church.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
catechism
499
The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".

491

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

966

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

967
she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972
After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints," the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.



In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.

IN BRIEF
973
By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).
Thanks for all of your research. So, Catholics MUST believe all of this in order to be saved? If so, however were people saved BEFORE these things became dogma in their church?? First century church knew nothing of these dogmas, but people managed to be saved nonetheless, without them. :)

I do note this in what you posted: "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."

Silly me; I thought Jesus Christ delivers our souls from eternal death in hell....how....foolish to put my faith in Christ Jesus, instead of in His mom, to deliver me....
 
Last edited:

Bonnie

Super Member
Wow...Quite the lack of participation from the rc members. Hmmmm
I noticed that, too. Why no answer to my simple question? MUST Catholics believe these 4 Marian dogmas in order to be saved? Balshan showed us that the RCC most definitely teaches these dogmas--but must Catholics believe them in order to be saved? Will a practicing Catholic step up to the plate and give me a straight answer?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


Quite the spin isn't it? I guess they were counting on people not thinking too hard when they read these things. We just grew to realize these things eh?

* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion.

There are two words translated as "blessed" in the New Testament. This one simply means to be happy/satisfied. How do you get from there to special devotion to Mary which is intrinsic to Christian worship?

And how does this amount to "worship"?


From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,'

Gotta love the spin.

Those 4th or 5th century "ancient times" not those first or second century "ancient times."


to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . .

Cast all your anxieties upon Mary. Forget about what Peter said.

differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."

I'm betting that there isn't a soul on earth who can tell me unambiguously where the line is between Marian veneration and adoration of Jesus.


The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972
After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints," the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.



In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.

IN BRIEF
973
By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

Except that the New Eve IS the church. The New Eve is the bride of Jesus not his mom.

Bridegroom: New Adam - Jesus
Bride: New Eve - the church his bride

These two shall become one not Jesus and his mom.
 
Last edited:
Top