Question for Catholics about the 4 Marian dogmas

[romishpopishorganist]

How can you prove unbiblical doctrines are 'revealed by God'? How do you test those teachings?

By the Church teaching. In other words--"testing" of the teaching comes through the Church as a collective body, not me as an individual. Hence--once the Church authoritatively defines the teaching---the teaching has been "tested" and found to be in accord with the dictates of Scripture.

How did the Church authoritatively testify to it? Just by saying so?

The Church authoritatively testifies to it by a formal definition either by the pope or ecumenical council.

You can find not one verse to substantiate Marian dogmas.

Just like Arius thought those who believed in the full divinity and equality of Christ with the Father could not find one verse to substantiate that, just like Calvinists believe other Christians cannot find one verse to substantiate anything other than TULIP, just like the Jews do not believe Christians can find one OT verse to substantiate the Christological claims, etc.

It is YOUR opinion that the Scriptures do not substantiate the Marian dogmas. What I want you to explain to me is what makes you any more an expert on what is or is not scriptural than Rome, or why your opinions should carry more weight than Rome's. You have not done that.

So we're back to you believe something simply because your church says so, not because it has any foundation in Scripture.

Why shouldn't I believe something becasue the Church says so?

And it isn't just that "The Church says so" as if the Church is giving an arbitrary pronouncement. Where in any of our official documents have you ever seen the following "Believe this becasue I say so?"

When you read the documents, you find reasoned explanations for why the Church believes thus and so, is defining it as such, and then you see scriptural references given.

Again, what makes YOU any more an expert on the Scriptures than Rome?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Marian dogmas are not God's truth. His truth is His word.

Of course His Truth is His Word. I just happen to believe that the Marian dogmas are His Truth and His Word.

Not even remotely the same.

How so?

Tell us how you determine if what your church is telling you what you must believe is actually God's truth if it is absent from His word? How to YOU test doctrines to see if they are actually of God?

Asked and answered.

No, that's not how it works.....the LITERAL definition of something being BIBLICAL, is that is is FOUND IN THE BIBLE. Something can't be biblical without being in the bible. This is common sense 101.

Who is the arbiter of what is and is not biblical? Who is the arbiter of what does or does not count as "proper testing?" You are telling me that I should not trust Rome. Fine. Who should I trust to be the authentic teacher and interpreter of Scripture? Who should I trust as the arbiter of what is or is not scriptural?

What makes a teaching valid is if it is BIBLICAL. Something can't be BIBLICAL and not be IN the bible.

Who is the arbiter of what is and is not biblical?

 

[4Him]

By the Church teaching. In other words--"testing" of the teaching comes through the Church as a collective body, not me as an individual. Hence--once the Church authoritatively defines the teaching---the teaching has been "tested" and found to be in accord with the dictates of Scripture.

No, that's also not how it works...

Study to show yourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth....

WE are to study, and test all things, hold to what is good.

The Church authoritatively testifies to it by a formal definition either by the pope or ecumenical council.

See above.

It is YOUR opinion that the Scriptures do not substantiate the Marian dogmas.

No, it's simply a fact. They are absent from scripture, hence the reason Catholics use the excuse that they don't post the scriptures because we won't believe them. There are no scriptures for you to post.

What I want you to explain to me is what makes you any more an expert on what is or is not scriptural than Rome, or why your opinions should carry more weight than Rome's. You have not done that.

Because I actually believe that if something is BIBLICAL, it is IN the bible.

Why shouldn't I believe something becasue the Church says so?

Never said you should. You should test all things and study to show yourself approved....

And it isn't just that "The Church says so"

Yes, it is.

as if the Church is giving an arbitrary pronouncement.

They are.

Where in any of our official documents have you ever seen the following "Believe this becasue I say so?"

You've already admitted you believe what they say, simply because they declare something to be.

When you read the documents, you find reasoned explanations for why the Church believes thus and so, is defining it as such, and then you see scriptural references given.

There are no scriptural references for marian dogmas.

Again, what makes YOU any more an expert on the Scriptures than Rome?

Because I actually believe that if something is BIBLICAL, it is IN the bible.

 

[4Him]

Of course His Truth is His Word. I just happen to believe that the Marian dogmas are His Truth and His Word.

Then post for us the scripture that supports the IC, PV and assumption of Mary.

How so?

Asked and answered.

I asked how YOU tested teachings. The answer is you don't.

Who is the arbiter of what is and is not biblical?

God. Every single word of the bible is biblical.

Who is the arbiter of what does or does not count as "proper testing?"

The bible.

You are telling me that I should not trust Rome.

Why should you?

Who should I trust to be the authentic teacher and interpreter of Scripture?

The Holy Spirit who abides in all who believe. Why do you think you are so incapable of interpreting what Scripture literally says?

Who should I trust as the arbiter of what is or is not scriptural?

God, not man.

Who is the arbiter of what is and is not biblical?

God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Of course His Truth is His Word. I just happen to believe that the Marian dogmas are His Truth and His Word.

You have been hoodwinked and deceived by your Church. If its contrary to the Word of God it must be rejected. It is not a matter of anyones opinion. Scripture interprets scripture. That is the only guide to the truth of Gods Word. You have been playing many bad notes on your organ. You need to change your key.

 

[Doug]

That is one of the stark differences between followers of Jesus and followers of Catholicism. Followers of Jesus look to God, while followers of Catholicism look to their Church.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Then post for us the scripture that supports the IC, PV and assumption of Mary.

WHY? Whatever I post---you will just give me 101 reasons why the verse does not teach what I believe it teaches.

What would be the point?

I asked how YOU tested teachings. The answer is you don't.

I test the teachings by how the collective body of believers has understood them throughout time, including present day.

God. Every single word of the bible is biblical.

No kidding. That isn't in dispute.

The question isn't "Is Biblical teaching Biblical?" The question is "Who is the authentic teacher and interpreter of Scripture? Who is the arbiter and judge of what is or is not Biblical?"

The bible.

Who is the judge and arbiter of what the Bible teaches?

Put another way:

I say the doctrines concerning Mary are scriptural. You say the doctrines concerning Mary are not scriptural. Why does your opinion matter more than my opinion?

The Holy Spirit who abides in all who believe. Why do you think you are so incapable of interpreting what Scripture literally says?

And that same Holy Spirit abides in me and testifies that the teachings concerning Mary are Scriptural. The Holy Spirit that abides in you says the opposite.

So again, why does your opinion matter more than mine--when both of us believe the Holy Spirit testifies to what we believe?

God, not man.

God.

Of course God, not man does.

I happen to believe that God is working in and through the Church to testify to what is scriptural. You believe God is working in and through--well,--whatever it is you believe God works in and through to testify to what is scriptural--yourself? Pastor Bob? Elder Sue? Trustee Joe? Deacon Jane? Bishop John? Board of elders? All of the above? Whatever.

The question is--why does your opinion or that of the leaders in your sect carry more weight as to what is or is not scriptural than that of Rome's?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

I have been hoodwinked?

That is your subjective opinion.

And your opinion matters more than Rome's why?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Because I actually believe that if something is BIBLICAL, it is IN the bible.

Good.

I believe the Marina dogmas ARE Biblical; therefore, they are in the Bible.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Good.

I believe the Marina dogmas ARE Biblical; therefore, they are in the Bible.

Than show us where they are in the Bible.

 

[4Him]

WHY?

Whatever I post---you will just give me 101 reasons why the verse does not teach what I believe it teaches.

What would be the point?

Thanks for proving you can't.

I test the teachings by how the collective body of believers has understood them throughout time, including present day.

That's now how scripture says to do it.....so again, you believe because your church says so, nothing more.

The question isn't "Is Biblical teaching Biblical?" The question is "Who is the authentic teacher and interpreter of Scripture? Who is the arbiter and judge of what is or is not Biblical?"

GOD. That's why He gave us His word.....that IS what is biblical.

Who is the judge and arbiter of what the Bible teaches?

Where does Scripture say we need a judge and arbiter of what the bible teaches? The bible says 'Study to SHOW YOURSELF approved, rightly dividing the word of truth"....YOU are to rightly divide the word, not pass that obligation onto man to tell you what you are or or not to believe or what is biblical....

Put another way:

I say the doctrines concerning Mary are scriptural.

Yet you refuse to show said doctrines are scriptural by quoting the scripture to support them. I don't have to prove a negative. It's YOUR job to prove they ARE scriptural, it's not my job to prove they aren't. The only proof I need is the fact that they are ABSENT from scripture.

You say the doctrines concerning Mary are not scriptural. Why does your opinion matter more than my opinion?

See above.

And that same Holy Spirit abides in me and testifies that the teachings concerning Mary are Scriptural.

Nope....the Holy Spirit isn't going to testify that an unbiblical teaching is biblical. Ever.

The Holy Spirit that abides in you says the opposite.

The bible says the opposite as well.

Of course God, not man does.

I happen to believe that God is working in and through the Church to testify to what is scriptural.

Only if that teaching IS biblical....something absent from Scripture, BY DEFINITION, can't be scriptural.

You believe God is working in and through--well,--whatever it is you believe God works in and through to testify to what is scriptural--yourself? Pastor Bob? Elder Sue? Trustee Joe? Deacon Jane? Bishop John? Board of elders? All of the above? Whatever.

God works through many....and we are to test all that the many teach to make sure those teachings are biblical. You don't do that.

The question is--why does your opinion or that of the leaders in your sect carry more weight as to what is or is not scriptural than that of Rome's?

See above.

 

[4Him]

I have been hoodwinked?

Yes, by your choosing.

 

[4Him]

Good.

I believe the Marina dogmas ARE Biblical; therefore, they are in the Bible.

Where? Show is the IC, PV and assumption of Mary in the bible.....but we all know why you keep refusing to do so....lurkers take note.

 

[balshan]

Do you ask questions so you can understand the answer or do you ask questions to ridicule the faith?

That is being paranoid. It is a shame, not everyone is out to get RCs.

 

[balshan]

Deflection.
There are tares in the Church sown by the enemy.

1 Cor 5:11 is clear removal of some. RCs use this verse to justify not following other verses and allowing their evil leaders to remain. They use it to cover up evil fruit.

 

[balshan]

WHY? Whatever I post---you will just give me 101 reasons why the verse does not teach what I believe it teaches.

What would be the point?

I test the teachings by how the collective body of believers has understood them throughout time, including present day.

No kidding. That isn't in dispute.

The question isn't "Is Biblical teaching Biblical?" The question is "Who is the authentic teacher and interpreter of Scripture? Who is the arbiter and judge of what is or is not Biblical?"

Who is the judge and arbiter of what the Bible teaches?

Put another way:

I say the doctrines concerning Mary are scriptural. You say the doctrines concerning Mary are not scriptural. Why does your opinion matter more than my opinion?

And that same Holy Spirit abides in me and testifies that the teachings concerning Mary are Scriptural. The Holy Spirit that abides in you says the opposite.

So again, why does your opinion matter more than mine--when both of us believe the Holy Spirit testifies to what we believe?

Of course God, not man does.

I happen to believe that God is working in and through the Church to testify to what is scriptural. You believe God is working in and through--well,--whatever it is you believe God works in and through to testify to what is scriptural--yourself? Pastor Bob? Elder Sue? Trustee Joe? Deacon Jane? Bishop John? Board of elders? All of the above? Whatever.

The question is--why does your opinion or that of the leaders in your sect carry more weight as to what is or is not scriptural than that of Rome's?

This answer shows you know your defence of these false teachings is extremely weak. You should be able to counter any objections, if it is really scriptural. The fact you cannot speaks volumes.

 

[balshan]

Good.

I believe the Marina dogmas ARE Biblical; therefore, they are in the Bible.

Yet you fail to prove it. You cannot do as Peter said:

1 Peter 3:15

,But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect

Let us be honest RCs have hope in Mary being able to get them out of purgatory and save them.

 

[balshan]

I have been hoodwinked?

That is your subjective opinion.

And your opinion matters more than Rome's why?

You don't have to believe the opinion of another. You need to test the spirits. You need to test Rome's opinions the same way, you need to be able to justify why you believe the false teachings of Rome.

 

[pilgrim]

What makes a teaching valid is if it is BIBLICAL.

So where in the Bible does it say this?

 

[4Him]

So where in the Bible does it say this?

For those with even a lick of common sense, the very definition of something being BIBLICAL, is that it is in the BIBLE.

That I even have to post this fact is utterly astounding.