Question for Catholics about the 4 Marian dogmas

[Bonnie]

What do you mean by the "real, Catholic Mary?"

I just remember you or another Catholic saying your church has the real Mary. So, I asked if that statue in the video represents the real, Catholic Mary...

I haven't seen her. Have you?

No--have you?

I couldn't tell you if that is exactly how she looks.

Not asking about what she looks like.

Why don't you rephrase the question? Does it bother you that she is portrayed as a queen?

Why should I rephrase it? I wrote in clear, simple English.

But yes, it does bother me, to see the humble maid of Nazareth portrayed as a queen and dressed in gaudy garments and weeping over her Son's impending death, if I remember right. That was before she was supposedly assumed into heaven and crowned queen of heaven....did the earthly Mary wear lavishly decorated brocaded gowns and a crown on her head while her Son was crucified?

Yes, I believe she is a queen. She is the mother of a Davidic king. Mothers of kings in the Old Testament served by the side of their sons as queen. That makes her "Gebirah" or "Great Lady."

Yes the OT. But we are in the NT. Mary is the mother of the Son of God, not an earthly, human king. What you believe is irrelevant; it is what the Bible shows us that counts. And what goes on in the heavenly kingdom of God isn't the same thing as what goes on and went on in human kingdoms.

She is portrayed as a queen in Rev 12.

That is not Mary; at least, not entirely. It is first the "sign" is Israel, then perhaps Mary, then the Church. Mary supposedly wasn't crowned queen of heaven until her assumption into heaven, correct? So, why would she be a "queen" in Revelation 12? But the "sign" is about to give birth. Also, this woman in the vision cried out in pain in childbirth--if Mary were sinless, as Catholics claim she is, she would not have suffered pain in childbirth--would she? Since God clearly says in Genesis that Eve and all women after her would have pain in childbirth as the result of sin (paraphrasing). We have been over this before.

If anything, the statue as a single image doesn't go far enough in portraying the "great things" that God has done for her.

Oh, so you seem NOW to think that that image does represent the true Mary that Catholics believe in....crowned and wearing a gaudy brocaded gown? Certainly, God did great things for her and through her. But does that excuse what is going on in that video, the adoration, veneration, and weeping over a gaudily-dressed statue?

"That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him."

Yes, I know. But then ALL believers who go to heaven will receive a crown. Not just Mary. ALL believers.

 

[balshan]

What do you mean by the "real, Catholic Mary?" I haven't seen her. Have you? I couldn't tell you if that is exactly how she looks.
Why don't you rephrase the question? Does it bother you that she is portrayed as a queen?
Yes, I believe she is a queen. She is the mother of a Davidic king. Mothers of kings in the Old Testament served by the side of their sons as queen. That makes her "Gebirah" or "Great Lady." She is portrayed as a queen in Rev 12.
If anything, the statue as a single image doesn't go far enough in portraying the "great things" that God has done for her.

"That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him."

Why does the question need to be rephrased, it has nothing to do with how she is portrayed at all. It is about how the worshippers are treating said statue. But what do the many statues of Mary say about the RC Mary and the way she is treated in the RCC. What is that video saying about how she is seen and how she is treated?

The real Mary is seen in scriptures, your institution has made her more than she is. We know the real Mary was Jewish not Catholic. How do we know this by the Jewish practices she did. The real Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was Born, she looked after her son. The real Mary had a normal marriage to Joseph, after the birth of Jesus. The real Mary was bless with other children. Children were a sign of a couple being blessed by God in that time. The real Mary took Jesus to the Temple when he was 12. The real Mary was at the feast of Cana. The real Mary came to take Jesus home. The real Mary was at the cross, at Pentecost. Then scripture is quiet about her.

There was a prophesy about Jesus being born and His mother would be a young maiden. That prophesy tells us about Jesus and His birth.

 

[mica]

Bonnie said:
Pilgrim, this is yet another attempt at diverting away from answering my question: does the statue in the video represent the REAL Catholic Mary? I seem to remember you or another Catholic saying that the Catholic Mary is the real Mary. Well, does this statue represent the real, Catholic Mary?

What do you mean by the "real, Catholic Mary?" I haven't seen her. Have you? I couldn't tell you if that is exactly how she looks.

Bonnie's post says represent the real, Catholic Mary - so the catholic 'idol' of Mary. Mary was Jewish, not catholic.

Why don't you rephrase the question? Does it bother you that she is portrayed as a queen?

she wasn't an earthly queen. why pretend she was? that's just another lie taught by the rcc. the queen of heaven is taught about in Jer 4 - have you read it? Is that your view of Mary?

Yes, I believe she is a queen. She is the mother of a Davidic king. Mothers of kings in the Old Testament served by the side of their sons as queen.

Mary wasn't the mother of an earthly king such as David was.

That makes her "Gebirah" or "Great Lady." She is portrayed as a queen in Rev 12.
If anything, the statue as a single image doesn't go far enough in portraying the "great things" that God has done for her.

Mary is nowhere in Rev 12. do catholics even know what the Revelation is about? what does the rcc teach about it?

"That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him."

catholics know nothing of what they could know if He was the center of their heart and their priority. catholics just spin around and around in the worldly teachings of the rcc. Their 'love' is for the rcc - it is not for Christ Himself.

 

[Bonnie]

Why does the question need to be rephrased, it has nothing to do with how she is portrayed at all. It is about how the worshippers are treating said statue. But what do the many statues of Mary say about the RC Mary and the way she is treated in the RCC. What is that video saying about how she is seen and how she is treated?

The real Mary is seen in scriptures, your institution has made her more than she is. We know the real Mary was Jewish not Catholic. How do we know this by the Jewish practices she did. The real Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was married, she looked after her son. The real Mary had a normal marriage to Joseph, after the birth of Jesus. The real Mary was bless with other children. Children were a sign of a couple being blessed by God in that time. The real Mary took Jesus to the Temple when he was 12. The real Mary was at the feast of Cana. The real Mary came to take Jesus home. The real Mary was at the cross, at Pentecost. Then scripture is quiet about her.

There was a prophesy about Jesus being born and His mother would be a young maiden. That prophesy tells us about Jesus and His birth.

Hi Balshan, I think you meant that the real Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was born. Correct?

And scripture is indeed quiet about her, except to mention her briefly in Acts 2, I think it is, at Pentecost. Then no more mention of Mary. Even Paul doesn't name her, when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman, born under the Law..." As always, Paul's focus was Jesus Christ.

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie's post says represent the real, Catholic Mary - so the catholic 'idol' of Mary. Mary was Jewish, not catholic.


she wasn't an earthly queen. why pretend she was? that's just another lie taught by the rcc. the queen of heaven is taught about in Jer 4 - have you read it? Is that your view of Mary?


Mary wasn't the mother of an earthly king such as David was.


Mary is nowhere in Rev 12. do catholics even know what the Revelation is about? what does the rcc teach about it?


catholics know nothing of what they could know if He was the center of their heart and their priority. catholics just spin around and around in the worldly teachings of the rcc. Their 'love' is for the rcc - it is not for Christ Himself.

And by represent Mary, I didn't mean represent what she supposedly looked like.

 

[balshan]

Hi Balshan, I think you meant that the real Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was born. Correct?

And scripture is indeed quiet about her, except to mention her briefly in Acts 2, I think it is, at Pentecost. Then no more mention of Mary. Even Paul doesn't name her, when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman, born under the Law..."

Thanks I made the correction. My mind was racing ahead of my fingers.

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks I made the correction. My mind was racing ahead of my fingers.

Happens to me all the time!

 

[Bonnie]

As Mother of God, God would have made her worthy and honorable for the role He asked of her. She also would have aquired the titles by virtue of her role.

Mary was mother of the Son of God in His Incarnation, not the entire godhead.

As for titles, just what "role" entitles Mary to be called "Star of the Sea," "Only hope for sinners," "gate of heaven", "refuge for sinners," "co-mediatrix", etc.?

 

[pilgrim]

Oh, so you seem NOW to think that that image does represent the true Mary that Catholics believe in....crowned and wearing a gaudy brocaded gown? Certainly, God did great things for her and through her. But

Yes, I know. But then ALL believers who go to heaven will receive a crown. Not just Mary. ALL believers.

If everyone gets a crown, then why does one on her bother you?

And what is wrong with the gown? What do you think women will wear in heaven? Yoga pants?

 

[pilgrim]

Mary was mother of the Son of God in His Incarnation, not the entire godhead.

As for titles, just what "role" entitles Mary to be called "Star of the Sea," "Only hope for sinners," "gate of heaven", "refuge for sinners," "co-mediatrix", etc.?

All of Mary's titles come from being the Mother of God.

 

[mica]

Bonnie said:
Oh, so you seem NOW to think that that image does represent the true Mary that Catholics believe in....crowned and wearing a gaudy brocaded gown? Certainly, God did great things for her and through her. But

Yes, I know. But then ALL believers who go to heaven will receive a crown. Not just Mary. ALL believers.

pilgrim said: - If everyone gets a crown, then why does one on her bother you?

crowns have been mentioned many times here - is that something else in scripture the rcc doesn't teach you? have you ever thought about searching scripture to find out?

And what is wrong with the gown?

maybe you should look at it again, with your eyes opened? or maybe you just like gross garb.

What do you think women will wear in heaven? Yoga pants?

sounds like something else you should search out in scripture.

 

[balshan]

If everyone gets a crown, then why does one on her bother you?

And what is wrong with the gown? What do you think women will wear in heaven? Yoga pants?

So missing the point.

 

[Bonnie]

If everyone gets a crown, then why does one on her bother you?

And what is wrong with the gown? What do you think women will wear in heaven? Yoga pants?

Because no one else is given unbiblical titles, made a statue dressed in a gaudy gown, and paraded about the streets for people to weep and fawn over.

 

[Bonnie]

So missing the point.

Big time.

 

[Bonnie]

All of Mary's titles come from being the Mother of God.

Totally false! Mary is the ONLY hope for sinners? What does that make Jesus? Chopped liver? Gate of heaven? JESUS says HE is the gate! How about Morning Star? Jesus said HE is the Morning Star, in Revelation. Health of the sick? It is God Who heals, not Mary! Comfort of the Afflicted? I thought the HS is our Comforter! Cause of our Joy? What? Jesus is our source of joy, not Mary!

None of these titles for Mary is remotely Biblical, and two of them are given to Jesus in the Bible, not Mary!

So very, very wrong!

 

[pilgrim]

Because no one else is given unbiblical titles, made a statue dressed in a gaudy gown, and paraded about the streets for people to weep and fawn over.

No one else was the Mother of God, Bonnie. Amazing that Protestants treat that like it is commonplace and no big deal.

 

[A new day]

edit

Where did Bonnie say she wanted to be given a special title and wear a gaudy gown and and paraded about the streets for people to weep and fawn over. Please link us to the post

 

[A new day]

No one else was the Mother of God, Bonnie.

Doesn't matter. No where in Scripture does it teach people to worship her. Which is what rc's are doing. The line between giving God praise and glory and giving mary the same is so thin, that it is hard to NOT see that it is worship. Its in the words rc's use, when they pray to her or sing songs about her. There is no other way in which those prayers to mary can be taken.

Bottom line, the extra adoration is ascribing to her, what belongs to God. All glory, praise and honor belongs to God.

 

[pilgrim]

Totally false! Mary is the ONLY hope for sinners? What does that make Jesus? Chopped liver? Gate of heaven? JESUS says HE is the gate! How about Morning Star? Jesus said HE is the Morning Star, in Revelation. Health of the sick? It is God Who heals, not Mary! Comfort of the Afflicted? I thought the HS is our Comforter! Cause of our Joy? What? Jesus is our source of joy, not Mary!

None of these titles for Mary is remotely Biblical, and two of them are given to Jesus in the Bible, not Mary!

So very, very wrong!

Everything you received from Jesus, you did so because He entered time and space incarnated from her flesh. edit per mod

 

[A new day]

Everything you received from Jesus, you did so because He entered time and space incarnated from her flesh. That is a big deal. edit per mod

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

We received NOTHING from mary. We don't disagree that God used her for a specific task. And that for her it was a blessing, but in NO way, did she impart anything to us. All that we have comes from God alone. HE is the one who provided us with salvation and eternal life. God, NOT mary.