Question for Christians on Morality

Howie

Well-known member
Disagree. God's morality once said it was immoral to eat pork or clam chowder. That has changed.
The unregenerate refuse to understand that food laws, 1) were peculiar to Israel under the old covenant and not reiterated to the church under the new covenant, in fact, under the New C8venant, ALL FOODS are declared legal.

2) Food laws given to Israel are not moral laws, they are food laws peculiar to Israel. We never see God punishing gentile nations for not observing food laws, do we, rossum? No, we don't. We do see them being punished for breaking the moral laws.

Regarding the moral laws, all men, believer and unbeliever alike are obligated to adhere to them. Moral laws are recorded in the 10 commandments and laws outlining unacceptable sexual behavior.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
The unregenerate refuse to understand that food laws, 1) were peculiar to Israel under the old covenant and not reiterated to the church under the covenant.

False. "38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" Acts 7:38

Luke is speaking to the New Testament church, and explicitly points out that those lively oracles were given to "US". Fail. Try again.
2) Food laws given to Israel are not moral laws,
False. God detests consumption of filth. It is immoral to pollute one's body which is a temple just like the temple God resides in and condemns anyone who would bring unclean animals into any temple.
they are food laws peculiar to Israel.
False. These unclean animals were always unclean. Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean. He was not a Jew, or an Israelite. God informed him to eat clean animals just as humanity had been instructed with regards to plants. Adam and his descendants were not instructed to eat poisonous plants. They're just as bad as poisonous animals.
We never see God punishing gentile nations for not observing food laws, do we, rossum? No, we don't.
False.

"we have before proved BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of CURSING and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY MOUTH M AY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;"

Note that there is no mention of continued forgiveness! Why? Because those who truly believe the gospel no longer sin.

"26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO.

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW."

There are no caveats excluding the dietary laws.

Regarding the moral laws, all men, believer and unbeliever alike are obligated to adhere to them. Moral laws are recorded in the 10 commandments and laws outlining unacceptable sexual behavior.
The ten commandments are a summary. They are not exhaustive. The moral law includes the dietary laws. They do not include any of your pagan traditions which claim that eating filth is morally acceptable.
 

Howie

Well-known member
False. "38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" Acts 7:38

Luke is speaking to the New Testament church, and explicitly points out that those lively oracles were given to "US". Fail. Try again.

False. God detests consumption of filth. It is immoral to pollute one's body which is a temple just like the temple God resides in and condemns anyone who would bring unclean animals into any temple.

False. These unclean animals were always unclean. Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean. He was not a Jew, or an Israelite. God informed him to eat clean animals just as humanity had been instructed with regards to plants. Adam and his descendants were not instructed to eat poisonous plants. They're just as bad as poisonous animals.

False.

"we have before proved BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of CURSING and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY MOUTH M AY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;"

Note that there is no mention of continued forgiveness! Why? Because those who truly believe the gospel no longer sin.

"26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO.

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW."

There are no caveats excluding the dietary laws.


The ten commandments are a summary. They are not exhaustive. The moral law includes the dietary laws. They do not include any of your pagan traditions which claim that eating filth is morally acceptable.
None of your lengthy post refutes my short accurate post regarding the difference between food laws and moral law.

Feel free to try again.
 

Howie

Well-known member
False. "38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" Acts 7:38

Luke is speaking to the New Testament church, and explicitly points out that those lively oracles were given to "US". Fail. Try again.

False. God detests consumption of filth. It is immoral to pollute one's body which is a temple just like the temple God resides in and condemns anyone who would bring unclean animals into any temple.

False. These unclean animals were always unclean. Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean. He was not a Jew, or an Israelite. God informed him to eat clean animals just as humanity had been instructed with regards to plants. Adam and his descendants were not instructed to eat poisonous plants. They're just as bad as poisonous animals.

False.

"we have before proved BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of CURSING and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY MOUTH M AY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;"

Note that there is no mention of continued forgiveness! Why? Because those who truly believe the gospel no longer sin.

"26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO.

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW."

There are no caveats excluding the dietary laws.


The ten commandments are a summary. They are not exhaustive. The moral law includes the dietary laws. They do not
Cite the book, chapter and verse in the new testament which reiterates to the church the food laws given to Israel in the old testament?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
None of your lengthy post refutes
False. Read it again. Better yet, I dare you to refute any of what I posted.
my short accurate post regarding the difference between food laws and moral law.
Your short post claims there is a difference. Claims are not proof. Your post is a prime example of the logical fallacy of Begging the Question. You simply assume what you claim to prove.

Fail.
God explicitly refers to eating filth as an abomination. The term means it is detestable to God. It is as detestable as sodomy which is also not part of your ten commandments, and something that by your logic is only applicable to Israel.

If there is nothing wrong or immoral with eating garbage, then there is nothing wrong with sodomy either. The church came up with this tradition and we are seeing how it spreads to include all manner of immorality. Once you open that door, it isn't likely to be closed any time soon. When the church admits the error of her way, only then will there be any sanity or logic restored. Fat chance of that happening any time soon.

Instead, the church will eventually embrace all manner of immorality. They have to in order to be consistent in their logic.
 

Howie

Well-known member
False. These unclean animals were always unclean. Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean.
Book, chapter and verse stating that.
He was not a Jew, or an Israelite. God informed him to eat clean animals just as humanity had been instructed with regards to plants. Adam and his descendants were not instructed to eat poisonous plants. They're just as
False: God to Noah, after the flood:

"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." Gen 9:3.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Cite the book, chapter and verse in the new testament which reiterates to the church the food laws given to Israel in the old testament?
I did. Acts 7:38 Q.E.D.

For more there's also Acts 15:21 which openly points out that new converts can sit in the synagogue on each and every Sabbath and listen to the book of Moses read to them. Of course, this is after Luke records (vss. 19,20) the fact that some gentiles are not following the dietary laws. They're eating animals that are not properly slaughtered. Again, you walked right into that one dude. Your traditions have blinded you to the truth in God's word.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Book, chapter and verse stating that.

False: God to Noah, after the flood:

"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." Gen 9:3.
Here's the whole sentence which you conveniently ignored:

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; EVEN AS THE GREEN HERB have I given you all things."

Did God give humanity hemlock or nightshade to eat? Nope. Fail. Try again.
 

Howie

Well-known member
I did. Acts 7:38 Q.E.D.
That passage does reiterate the food laws. Try again.

For more there's also Acts 15:21 which openly points out that new converts can sit in the synagogue on each and every Sabbath and listen to the book of Moses read to them. Of course, this is after Luke records (vss. 19,20) the fact that some gentiles are not following the dietary laws. They're eating animals that are not properly slaughtered. Again, you walked right into that one dude. Your traditions have blinded you to the truth in God's word.
Says nothing about the church being required to follow Israel's food laws.

For the record, that's 3 things you've refuted.
 
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Howie

Well-known member
Here's the whole sentence which you conveniently ignored:

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; EVEN AS THE GREEN HERB have I given you all things."

Did God give humanity hemlock or nightshade to eat? Nope. Fail. Try again.
Where, in the Old Testament, is found the laws regarding the consumption of herbs?
 

Howie

Well-known member
False.

"we have before proved BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of CURSING and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY MOUTH M AY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;"

Note that there is no mention of continued forgiveness! Why? Because those who truly believe the gospel no longer sin.

"26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO.

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW."
You're wrong again, bud. There is nothing in that passage about food laws ... you finished now?
 
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Torin

Well-known member
Then God does not exist. Here's the proof; it has one premise, the rest follows via logic:

1) It is not true that if God doesn't exist, then objective moral facts exist. [Premise]
2) It is not true that either God exists or objective moral facts exist. [Material Implication: 1]
3) God doesn't exist and objective moral facts don't exist. [De Morgans Theorem: 2]
4) Therefore, God does not exist. [Simplification: 3]
It is not true that if God exists, then God does not exist.

It is not true that either God exists or God does not exist.

God exists and God does not exist.

Therefore, God exists.

???
 

ydoaPs

New Member
It is not true that if God exists, then God does not exist.

It is not true that either God exists or God does not exist.

God exists and God does not exist.

Therefore, God exists.

???
You've got a slight error there:
1) it's not true that if God exists, then God does not exist.
2) it's not true that either God doesn't exist or God doesn't exist.
3) God exists and God exists.
4) Therefore, God exists.

You had a negation error that carries through
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
That passage does reiterate the food laws. Try again.
See Acts 15:21 which explicitly points out why there's no point in repeating the entire Mosaic law because they can learn all about it in the synagogues each and every Sabbath day.
Says nothing about the church being required to follow Israel's food laws.
Explicitly refers to converts to the church keeping the dietary laws. The only place where strangling or consuming blood is forbidden is in the dietary laws. Fail. Your ignorance of scripture is profound.
For the record, that's 3 things you've refuted.
Agreed. I commend you for acknowledging the fact.
 
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