Your answer is no. Thanks, I knew that already.
Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"
- Thread starter Torin
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Gus Bovona
Well-known member
The minimum burden atheists have is not refutation. The minimum position for an atheist is to say that theists have not met their burden of proof. To say that a claim has not been met its burden of proof is not to refute the claim. Refuting the claim would forestall any possibility of the claim being true, but merely saying that the claim has not met its burden of proof leaves open the possibility that it could.Most atheists on CARM seem to believe that theists on CARM have a "burden of proof:" that is, there is some sense in which theists on CARM need to have and/or provide arguments for God's existence.
So, here is my question.
Do you think atheists on CARM have a "burden of refutation:" that is, some sort of obligation to refute one or more arguments for God's existence, under some circumstances? Why or why not?
The question is intentionally vague to allow for a range of interpretations of the "burden of refutation."
Thanks for your thoughts!
I agree. To be clear, the "refutation" referred to in the "burden of refutation" would be refutation of arguments for theism, not refutation of theism.
Gus Bovona
Well-known member
What's the difference between a refutation of the arguments for theism, and a refutation of theism? Is this a distinction without a difference?
A refutation of the arguments for theism would leave theism without any positive support. That would leave a reasonable person in the position of "agnosticism" or "negative atheism." On the other hand, a refutation of theism would leave us in the position of concluding that theism is false or very probably false, which yields "positive atheism" (or simply "atheism," depending on terminology).
Gus Bovona
Well-known member
Gotcha.
But none of those written documents of other religions prove that gods exist either.
You already admitted you can't disprove God's existence.
SteveB
Well-known member
I've never seen gods or fairies.
So, why don't you try focusing on what is actually being discussed, instead of your hallucinations.
Nobody who follows Jesus is talking about gods or fairies.
But that doesn't mean that gods exist, and it's your burden to prove that gods actually exist, not mine.You already admitted you can't disprove God's existence.
And so far I haven't seen any evidence that they exist, let alone any evidence why they need to be kowtowed to.
SteveB
Well-known member
I'd say that this is the mistake then.
I didn't go looking for divinity. No Jesus followers I've ever met and talked with went looking for divinity.
So, if you failed to find divinity, then perhaps you should stop trying to find divinity, and simply come to YHVH, on YHVH's terms. He's plainly stated that those who seek him with a whole heart will find him.
He even said that he will give you a heart to know him.
Quite frankly, I don't know why anyone would think that they could find that which doesn't exist, while dismissing what has been stated, for Him who does exist.
As you started with a false view, I'd say that you placed yourself outside the playing field.
Let YHVH know when you are ready to come to him on his terms.
IOW you have no actual evidence that your god exists since you've never seen a god, let alone your's as described in the stories in Gen 18 and Gen 32:22-32.
Or are those stories in Gen 18 and Gen 32:22-32 just imaginative fantasies like Cinderella and Tolkien's stories?
SteveB
Well-known member
I never said they did.
Even the textbooks I used in college required my action in using them to determine the truth they presented.
Perhaps the problem here is that you have never actually done anything about it.
Your previous post mentioned looking for divinity. I didn't see anything in the bible that discusses seeking divinity.
Do what they describe and then tell me.
I find it curious that you talk about finding divinity and then include fairy tales.
No wonder you never found divinity.
Why can't YHVH drop around for a beer and chat about the terms like Abraham and his god (Gen 18) or Jacob (Gen 32:22-32)?
SteveB
Well-known member
I have plenty of evidence that YHVH exists.
He gives us the evidence of his existence as well as a guarantee of our adoption by him.
So, your problem here is that you equate your ignorance with knowledge.
You'll have to come follow Jesus to get the correct answer to this one.
But do you have any photos or videos
If he's interested perhaps he could drop around for a beer and a chat, or a glass of plonk if he prefers.
You'll have to come follow Jesus to get the correct answer to this one.
SteveB
Well-known member
As proof that your god exists.
That's his choice whether or not he wants to drop around for a beer or a glass of plonk and a chat.
Authentic Nouveau
Well-known member
Most atheists on CARM seem to believe that theists on CARM have a "burden of proof:" that is, there is some sense in which theists on CARM need to have and/or provide arguments for God's existence.
So, here is my question.
Do you think atheists on CARM have a "burden of refutation:" that is, some sort of obligation to refute one or more arguments for God's existence, under some circumstances? Why or why not?
The question is intentionally vague to allow for a range of interpretations of the "burden of refutation."
Thanks for your thoughts!
Let's start with you.
You claimed to have been a Christian and left. But your testimony from you indicates you were never born again. Will you clear that up and prove Jesus was wrong when he said "ye must be born again"?
You refuted yourself.
SteveB
Well-known member
Ah. Ok. Provide me with a picture... nah... make it a video of you, describing our conversation, including the audio, si I can know that you are real.
Why would he if you don't engage him?