Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"

Nouveau

Well-known member
How am I responsible for other adults and what they do or do not do or choose to believe and or not believe, lol
Well it is very obvious, to me, that Eternal Life with God is much much greatly preferred over and eternity in Hell with Lucifer and his fallen gang.

But then again, all those that do not want the truth will just dismiss Heaven and Hell..
No-one's claiming you are responsible for what others believe. My point was that you shouldn't blame others for not believing things you can't give any good reasons for believing. It's not that atheists don't want to believe, but rather just that there's no good reason to believe.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Well read the entire Bible for yourself, and at least be honest for your own self in that as well.
Do you see how you can't give any good reason for thinking that the Bible is the Word of God?

If you can't support a claim, why blame others for not believing it?
 

rossh

Well-known member
Yeah, I am being serious.
I'm asking you a simple question of what Paul said about the issue you posted Saturday evening.



so, I asked you what you're familiar with in those two passages.

Paul tells us exactly what the answer is to your question.
He answered it in Romans 10, and 1 Corinthians 1.

Please tell me what it is.
Here is what Paul is saying;

1 From: Sha’ul, called by God’s will to be an emissary of the Messiah Yeshua; and from brother Sosthenes

2 To: God’s Messianic community in Corinth, consisting of those who have been set apart by Yeshua the Messiah and called to be God’s holy people — along with everyone everywhere who calls on the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, their Lord as well as ours:

3 Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

4 I thank my God always for you because of God’s love and kindness given to you through the Messiah Yeshua, 5 in that you have been enriched by him in so many ways, particularly in power of speech and depth of knowledge. 6 Indeed, the testimony about the Messiah has become firmly established in you; 7 so that you are not lacking any spiritual gift and are eagerly awaiting the revealing of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah. 8 He will enable you to hold out until the end and thus be blameless on the Day of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah — 9 God is trustworthy: it was he who called you into fellowship with his Son, Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.

10 Nevertheless, brothers, I call on you in the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah to agree, all of you, in what you say, and not to let yourselves remain split into factions but be restored to having a common mind and a common purpose. 11 For some of Chloe’s people have made it known to me, my brothers, that there are quarrels among you. 12 I say this because one of you says, “I follow Sha’ul”; another says, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Kefa”; while still another says, “I follow the Messiah!” 13 Has the Messiah been split in pieces? Was it Sha’ul who was put to death on a stake for you? Were you immersed into the name of Sha’ul? 14 I thank God that I didn’t immerse any of you except Crispus and Gaius — 15 otherwise someone might say that you were indeed immersed into my name. 16 (Oh yes, I did also immerse Stephanas and his household; beyond that, I can’t remember whether I immersed anyone else.)

17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power. 18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God. 19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent.”
[a]
20 Where does that leave the philosopher, the Torah-teacher, or any of today’s thinkers? Hasn’t God made this world’s wisdom look pretty foolish? 21 For God’s wisdom ordained that the world, using its own wisdom, would not come to know him. Therefore God decided to use the “nonsense” of what we proclaim as his means of saving those who come to trust in it. 22 Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, 23 we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstacle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God’s power and God’s wisdom! 25 For God’s “nonsense” is wiser than humanity’s “wisdom.”

And God’s “weakness” is stronger than humanity’s “strength.” 26 Just look at yourselves, brothers — look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world’s standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. 27 But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; 28 and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; 29 so that no one should boast before God. 30 It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! 31 Therefore — as the Tanakh says — “Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about Adonai.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Well read the entire Bible for yourself, and at least be honest for your own self in that as well.
Reading the bible (as I have had to do twice in religious academy) is not enough. You also need to know the historical, environmental and social context of the disparate writings and the presuppositional beliefs of the time and of those who brought it together in a canon, defined it, and then were forced to defend it.

Without that second part, an opinion on the veracity of scriptural content is wholly untrustworthy.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Showing non believers anything is basically a waste of time...they just do not want to believe..
That's a pity you believe that.

YHVH says otherwise.
Isaiah 55:8-11

Isa 55:8-11 WEB 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Yahweh. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth, and makes it grow and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11 so is my word that goes out of my mouth: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I please, and it will prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

He explicitly stated that his word achieves the purpose for which he sent it out.

Salvation to those who believe, and judgment of sin to those who do not believe.

I have a lot of questions but no one here can answer any of them.
I have the same exact issue.
I've put two atheists on ignore because of this issue. You're not alone.

Seems that are all into esoteric acrobatics and mental gymnastics just to come to some wrong conclusion about the Word of God.
I couldn't have stated that more perfectly!

It also seems that many of you do not in fact believe that Scripture, is in fact the very Word of God Himself.
Oh, I believe that it's the very words of YHVH, as Paul says in Timothy, theopnuestos-- God breathed.

It is all about Salvation..
Indeed.
He is seeking to save us from our sin and the consequences of sin.

Why is God trying to save all of us, yet, as you seem to think, He gives a book full of mysteries...?
It's plainly written,

Mat 13:10-17 WEB 10 The disciples came, and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered them, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them. 12 For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever doesn’t have, from him will be taken away even that which he has. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand. 14 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive; 15 for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again, and I would heal them.’ 16 “But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. 17 For most certainly I tell you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which you see, and didn’t see them; and to hear the things which you hear, and didn’t hear them.

Furthermore, we read in psalm 78

Psa 78:1-8 WEB 1 Hear my teaching, my people. Turn your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable. I will utter dark sayings of old, 3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, telling to the generation to come the praises of Yahweh, his strength, and his wondrous deeds that he has done. 5 For he established a covenant in Jacob, and appointed a teaching in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children; 6 that the generation to come might know, even the children who should be born; who should arise and tell their children, 7 that they might set their hope in God, and not forget God’s deeds, but keep his commandments, 8 and might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation, a generation that didn’t make their hearts loyal, whose spirit was not steadfast with God.

The problem here isn't that it's a book of mysteries.
Rather, it's a book that can only be understood by the power of God's Spirit, and his provision.

Isa 29:9-16 WEB 9 Pause and wonder! Blind yourselves and be blind! They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For Yahweh has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes, the prophets; and he has covered your heads, the seers. 11 All vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is educated, saying, “Read this, please;” and he says, “I can’t, for it is sealed;” 12 and the book is delivered to one who is not educated, saying, “Read this, please;” and he says, “I can’t read.” 13 The Lord said, “Because this people draws near with their mouth and honors me with their lips, but they have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which has been taught; 14 therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the understanding of their prudent men will be hidden.” 15 Woe to those who deeply hide their counsel from Yahweh, and whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, “Who sees us?” and “Who knows us?” 16 You turn things upside down! Should the potter be thought to be like clay; that the thing made should say about him who made it, “He didn’t make me;” or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding?”

People who refuse to come to Jesus are blinded, and not willing to hear. They cut themselves off from YHVH.

We preach the gospel of Jesus because God has explicitly stated that he chose to save sinners who believe him through the foolishness of preaching the cross.

Their hearts are closed and their minds blinded. YHVH has imbued the gospel with power. The spoken word quickens or makes alive those who hear, so they may believe him.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Obviously not.
Let me guess, you never actually understood the historical, social and cultural context of the bible?

What you failed to achieve in all that two-time reading of the bible was the following.

1Co 1:18-21 WEB 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Hasn’t God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

God's power is in the word. It's the power of salvation for the people who believe him. And foolishness, resulting in death to those who do not believe him.

As Paul further pointed out in 2 Corinthians 2.

2Co 2:14-16 WEB 14 Now thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and reveals through us the sweet aroma of his knowledge in every place. 15 For we are a sweet aroma of Christ to God, in those who are saved and in those who perish: 16 to the one a stench from death to death, to the other a sweet aroma from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?


We who follow Jesus make known the sweet aroma of his knowledge wherever we talk about Jesus.

To those who are being saved, we are the aroma of life.

To those who are perishing.... we are the stench of death.

Which results in the simple fact that you get to choose life or death.

YHVH says that he has set before you life and death. He calls heaven and earth as witness to this, calling you to choose life.

You choose. Life or death?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Here is what Paul is saying;

1 From: Sha’ul, called by God’s will to be an emissary of the Messiah Yeshua; and from brother Sosthenes

2 To: God’s Messianic community in Corinth, consisting of those who have been set apart by Yeshua the Messiah and called to be God’s holy people — along with everyone everywhere who calls on the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, their Lord as well as ours:

3 Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

4 I thank my God always for you because of God’s love and kindness given to you through the Messiah Yeshua, 5 in that you have been enriched by him in so many ways, particularly in power of speech and depth of knowledge. 6 Indeed, the testimony about the Messiah has become firmly established in you; 7 so that you are not lacking any spiritual gift and are eagerly awaiting the revealing of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah. 8 He will enable you to hold out until the end and thus be blameless on the Day of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah — 9 God is trustworthy: it was he who called you into fellowship with his Son, Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.

10 Nevertheless, brothers, I call on you in the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah to agree, all of you, in what you say, and not to let yourselves remain split into factions but be restored to having a common mind and a common purpose. 11 For some of Chloe’s people have made it known to me, my brothers, that there are quarrels among you. 12 I say this because one of you says, “I follow Sha’ul”; another says, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Kefa”; while still another says, “I follow the Messiah!” 13 Has the Messiah been split in pieces? Was it Sha’ul who was put to death on a stake for you? Were you immersed into the name of Sha’ul? 14 I thank God that I didn’t immerse any of you except Crispus and Gaius — 15 otherwise someone might say that you were indeed immersed into my name. 16 (Oh yes, I did also immerse Stephanas and his household; beyond that, I can’t remember whether I immersed anyone else.)

17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power. 18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God. 19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent.”
[a]
20 Where does that leave the philosopher, the Torah-teacher, or any of today’s thinkers? Hasn’t God made this world’s wisdom look pretty foolish? 21 For God’s wisdom ordained that the world, using its own wisdom, would not come to know him. Therefore God decided to use the “nonsense” of what we proclaim as his means of saving those who come to trust in it. 22 Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, 23 we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstacle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God’s power and God’s wisdom! 25 For God’s “nonsense” is wiser than humanity’s “wisdom.”

And God’s “weakness” is stronger than humanity’s “strength.” 26 Just look at yourselves, brothers — look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world’s standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. 27 But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; 28 and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; 29 so that no one should boast before God. 30 It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! 31 Therefore — as the Tanakh says — “Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about Adonai.
Ok. And from Romans 10?
 

5wize

Well-known member
Let me guess, you never actually understood the historical, social and cultural context of the bible?
Actually I have. That's how I know that the historical and social context has not eluded you, but you refuse it as it threatens a weak and blind holy-roller religious fervor dependent on false mythologies to maintain faith. That's not good faith.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Actually I have. That's how I know that the historical and social context has not eluded you, but you refuse it as it threatens a weak and blind holy-roller religious fervor dependent on false mythologies to maintain faith. That's not good faith.
I'm not the one who keeps saying that you're right.
I know I'm wrong, which is why I believe neither you nor myself.

I do however find it hilarious that you need me to be a weak and blind Holy roller dependent on false mythologies.

Well, I'm fine with that.
Jesus said that is exactly what people like you would need to do in order to feel justified.
 

5wize

Well-known member
I'm not the one who keeps saying that you're right.
I know I'm wrong, which is why I believe neither you nor myself.

I do however find it hilarious that you need me to be a weak and blind Holy roller dependent on false mythologies.

Well, I'm fine with that.
Jesus said that is exactly what people like you would need to do in order to feel justified.
Justified in what? I don't make those comments for self justification. For that I have a life, a wife, a family, a career, friends, hobbies, talents. Too busy experiencing the goodness of life to need some external supernatural sense of justification like you do. I'm too busy for your sin... you however must not be to be chasing all this justification you sense you need.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Ha, interpreting Scripture ? please I am not a cult follower, God says exactly what God wants to say as it is.
Thou shalt not kill.. well wonder what that means ummmm ?
Please, show me which passage/s that you need to understand ?
"Thou shalt not kill" What does that mean? Thou shalt not murder? Thou shalt not kill someone in self defence? Thou shalt not kill someone in the course of war? Thou shalt not kill anyone under any circumstance ever? Which is it?
 

rossh

Well-known member
"Thou shalt not kill" What does that mean? Thou shalt not murder? Thou shalt not kill someone in self defence? Thou shalt not kill someone in the course of war? Thou shalt not kill anyone under any circumstance ever? Which is it?
It means what it says... " Thou shall not kill.. " Now, go to the Ordinances/Statutes that God also gave Israel, all the 360 of them.. Obviously not in war, obviously not in capital punishment etc; as God command execution of criminals and blasphemy etc;
You claim to be very well read in regards to the Bible ?
How many stones tablets could Moses carry down the Mountain, if God gave him all the statutes and ordinance at the same time ?
 

rossh

Well-known member
Reading the bible (as I have had to do twice in religious academy) is not enough. You also need to know the historical, environmental and social context of the disparate writings and the presuppositional beliefs of the time and of those who brought it together in a canon, defined it, and then were forced to defend it.

Without that second part, an opinion on the veracity of scriptural content is wholly untrustworthy.
and ? why should we believe YOU instead of God ? Is God Himself taught by you, or are we ALL taught by the Word of God alone ?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Justified in what? I don't make those comments for self justification. For that I have a life, a wife, a family, a career, friends, hobbies, talents. Too busy experiencing the goodness of life to need some external supernatural sense of justification like you do. I'm too busy for your sin... you however must not be to be chasing all this justification you sense you need.
Ironically, according to

Act 14:15-17 WEB 15 “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the sky, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them; 16 who in the generations gone by allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he didn’t leave himself without witness, in that he did good and gave you rains from the sky and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

He's given you a good life, so you can know that he is good and loves you.

But if you ignore his goodness and disregard his warnings, upon your death, the loss of all your life and family will be your own doing.
An eternity with Jesus is the continuation of life, but way better. An eternity separated from him means the end of all his goodness and life.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yes obviously, and ?
You don't follow thought through very well.

You stated.....

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 that God has explicitly chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save us who believe him.

In Romans 10, he says

Rom 10:5-17 WEB 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down); 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we preach: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart, one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they didn’t all listen to the glad news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It's through preaching the message that people may hear, be given faith through hearing, and by that, be saved.

So, to answer your question...

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

We proclaim the cross of Jesus.
God will save those who believe him, and those who refuse, will remain condemned by their sin.
 
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