Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"

5wize

Well-known member
Ironically, according to

Act 14:15-17 WEB 15 “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the sky, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them; 16 who in the generations gone by allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he didn’t leave himself without witness, in that he did good and gave you rains from the sky and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

He's given you a good life, so you can know that he is good and loves you.

But if you ignore his goodness and disregard his warnings, upon your death, the loss of all your life and family will be your own doing.
An eternity with Jesus is the continuation of life, but way better. An eternity separated from him means the end of all his goodness and life.
But you don't know that. Jesus never said that. Even if he did there would be no way for you to know whether it was true.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
But you don't know that. Jesus never said that. Even if he did there would be no way for you to know whether it was true.
And no way for you to know that it's not true.

But, if you actually want to walk this dog, we have no way of knowing if you're a poorly programmed AI, and therefore immaterial to the topics being discussed.
 

rossh

Well-known member
You don't follow thought through very well.

You stated.....

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 that God has explicitly chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save us who believe him.

In Romans 10, he says

Rom 10:5-17 WEB 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down); 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we preach: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart, one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they didn’t all listen to the glad news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It's through preaching the message that people may hear, be given faith through hearing, and by that, be saved.

So, to answer your question...

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

We proclaim the cross of Jesus.
God will save those who believe him, and those who refuse, will remain condemned by their sin.
Yes I already know this and I have quoted all the related SCRIPTURES!! Not my " guesswork " Gods Word..
What is stopping you all from understanding simple scripture ?
 

rossh

Well-known member
You don't follow thought through very well.

You stated.....

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 that God has explicitly chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save us who believe him.

In Romans 10, he says

Rom 10:5-17 WEB 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down); 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we preach: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart, one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they didn’t all listen to the glad news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It's through preaching the message that people may hear, be given faith through hearing, and by that, be saved.

So, to answer your question...

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

We proclaim the cross of Jesus.
God will save those who believe him, and those who refuse, will remain condemned by their sin.
Your quote, shame, there is no " foolishness of the cross " per se.
1 cor 1:17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power. 18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God. 19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,
 

rossh

Well-known member
Ironically, according to

Act 14:15-17 WEB 15 “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the sky, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them; 16 who in the generations gone by allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he didn’t leave himself without witness, in that he did good and gave you rains from the sky and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

He's given you a good life, so you can know that he is good and loves you.

But if you ignore his goodness and disregard his warnings, upon your death, the loss of all your life and family will be your own doing.
An eternity with Jesus is the continuation of life, but way better. An eternity separated from him means the end of all his goodness and life.
God gave us His only flesh and blood Son to DIE in our place,, this is Gods Great Gift to all mankind IF we just truly believe it.
 

rossh

Well-known member
You don't follow thought through very well.

You stated.....

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 that God has explicitly chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save us who believe him.

In Romans 10, he says

Rom 10:5-17 WEB 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down); 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we preach: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart, one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they didn’t all listen to the glad news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It's through preaching the message that people may hear, be given faith through hearing, and by that, be saved.

So, to answer your question...

Amen,, and that is the truth, but how do we show atheists this truth, so that they too can also truly believe and then be saved.. ??

We proclaim the cross of Jesus.
God will save those who believe him, and those who refuse, will remain condemned by their sin.
so when are you athiests going to PROVE that God does not exist ? Why are we waiting ?
 

rossh

Well-known member
"Thou shalt not kill" What does that mean? Thou shalt not murder? Thou shalt not kill someone in self defence? Thou shalt not kill someone in the course of war? Thou shalt not kill anyone under any circumstance ever? Which is it?
Here, now go read up on these Ordinances..

The Jewish tradition that there are 613 commandments ( Hebrew: תרי״ג מצוות ‎, romanized : taryag mitzvot) or mitzvot in the Torah (also known as the Law of Moses) is first recorded in the 3rd century CE, when Rabbi Simlai mentioned it in a sermon that is recorded in Talmud Makkot 23b.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yes I already know this and I have quoted all the related SCRIPTURES!! Not my " guesswork " Gods Word..
What is stopping you all from understanding simple scripture ?
I'm a me, not a you all.
I understand just fine. It's why I've been a follower of Jesus for the past 44 years.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Your quote, shame, there is no " foolishness of the cross " per se.
1 cor 1:17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power. 18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God. 19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,
I think you've crossed discussions.
I never said that the preaching of the cross wasn't foolishness.

Paul explicitly stated that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing and the power of God to salvation for all who believe.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
so when are you athiests going to PROVE that God does not exist ? Why are we waiting ?
I've been waiting for 20 years. They've yet to provide a single shred of evidence that God doesn't exist.

I've even provided them with the means to do so. They've never once followed through.

So, if you're waiting for something that will never happen, I'd encourage you to stop waiting and focus on preaching the cross of Jesus.
 

rossh

Well-known member
Yep. Which is exactly why I do believe in Jesus.
Great news and may the Lord bless you even more;
17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power. 18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God. 19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent.”
[a]
20 Where does that leave the philosopher, the Torah-teacher, or any of today’s thinkers? Hasn’t God made this world’s wisdom look pretty foolish? 21 For God’s wisdom ordained that the world, using its own wisdom, would not come to know him. Therefore God decided to use the “nonsense” of what we proclaim as his means of saving those who come to trust in it. 22 Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, 23 we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstacle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God’s power and God’s wisdom! 25 For God’s “nonsense” is wiser than humanity’s “wisdom.

Romans 10:9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance. 11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.

So I quote Gods Word, and not mine, so that YOU who is telling us this..
 

J regia

Well-known member
Great news and may the Lord bless you even more;
17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power. 18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God. 19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent.”
[a]
20 Where does that leave the philosopher, the Torah-teacher, or any of today’s thinkers? Hasn’t God made this world’s wisdom look pretty foolish? 21 For God’s wisdom ordained that the world, using its own wisdom, would not come to know him. Therefore God decided to use the “nonsense” of what we proclaim as his means of saving those who come to trust in it. 22 Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, 23 we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstacle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God’s power and God’s wisdom! 25 For God’s “nonsense” is wiser than humanity’s “wisdom.

Romans 10:9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance. 11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.

So I quote Gods Word, and not mine, so that YOU who is telling us this..
And just words in a book, and no evidence that gods exist.
 

SteveB

Well-known member

rossh

Well-known member
Yep. Which is exactly why I do believe in Jesus.
Well amen to that belief in Yeshua Matt 1:
20 But while he was thinking about this, an angel of Adonai appeared to him in a dream and said, “Yosef, son of David, do not be afraid to take Miryam home with you as your wife; for what has been conceived in her is from the Ruach HaKodesh. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua, [which means ‘Adonai saves,’] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this happened in order to fulfill what Adonai had said through the prophet,
23 “The virgin will conceive and bear a son,and they will call him ‘Immanu El.” (The name means, “God is with us.”)
24 When Yosef awoke he did what the angel of Adonai had told him to do — he took Miryam home to be his wife, 25 but he did not have sexual relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Yeshua.
 

5wize

Well-known member
And no way for you to know that it's not true.

But, if you actually want to walk this dog, we have no way of knowing if you're a poorly programmed AI, and therefore immaterial to the topics being discussed.
It doesn't matter. reCaptcha me then. Won't change how silly it is that you believe you know things about something no normal person would claim to know because of sources that fail even the most rudimentary and childish veracity tests.
 

Algor

Well-known member
so when are you athiests going to PROVE that God does not exist ? Why are we waiting ?
Proof nobody can give, for any reasonably complex natural system. All one can do is critique the structure of an argument and pile up evidences.

If you are interested in why this is so, I suggest you read the classic To Save the Phenomenon by Pierre Duhem (a convinced Catholic, BTW, so it isn't atheist propaganda). You are waiting because reality is complicated, and proving anything by means of reasoned argument alone is like nailing jelly to a tree. That being said, what an atheist can do is identify the assumptions made, and identify how the evidence for and against an argument relates to the argument itself.

I think you will find that, if dispassionately examined, the (rational) evidence for the existence of a deity rests on the fact that the arguments for it are intuitively plausible, and the believer wants and sometimes rationally needs them confirmed. OTOH the atheist looks at such intuitions with suspicion, and often finds them mere prejudice, with only flimsy backing, often with contradictory evidence, and a position of doubt more plausible than conviction. The adumbration of deep skepticism around each argument rationally leads to agnosticism, and if consideration and personal valuation of rationality are favourable, atheism.

To give an example, the idea that every event is caused. Why must this be so? Intuitively, it seems obvious. Analytically, it is not at all: cause and effect seem ideas reflecting mere prejudice, albeit tempting, and the farther one chases the ideas of cause and effect, the more abstract, rarefied and frankly irrelevant the subject becomes. With an increase in certainty as to the irrelevancy of abstractions justified almost wholly by intuition comes the notion that very little is certain on empirical grounds alone, and thus metaphysical abstractions arising predominantly from intuitions about nature should be relentlessly simplified, insofar as possible, and always carefully and rigorously examined, as being poor guides to truth.

However, faith is still justifiable, IMHO, although not from a purely dispassionate view (again, IMHO) . The arguments I have sketched rely on intuition and plausibility to evaluate, as well as logic and evidence. Doubt has two faces: inclining towards non-belief, or inclining towards the possibility of a truth that may not be proven. It is a moral responsibility to pick which attitudes, evidences and justifications lead one towards a functional and healthy life, while respecting the latitudes that one's degrees of conviction for or against provide you. The first duty towards yourself is your own health, well being, and sense of truth and rightness (note: not righteousness, but rightness: again, my opinion). This leads people various places, that are not always compatible with each other, and the main challenge in my opinion is not actually to establish objective truth, but to live with one another. Others may be worried more about eternal torment or reward, but I can't do anything about that.

I would also add that sometimes experiential pheniomena are so deeply convincing of one argument or another that the person who has the experience literally has no choice but to be convinced of one side or the other. This is not uncommon and not to be sneered at. However, such phenomena work both ways: some people go through religious experience and emerge convinced that they have seen the deity, face to face. Others go through nightmare and emerge convinced that there is no possibility of such a being at all. Both are non-rational convictions, both are justified, and both I'd consider myself a fool if I argued with the individuals concerned about the conclusions alone.

cheers
 
Last edited:
Top