Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
You're the one who keeps trying to win arguments which were lost at the resurrection of Jesus.
Don't like it?
Good! You're not supposed to like it.
Find it painfully tediously and morosely boring?
Perfect! You're supposed to!

You're more than welcome to dump everything you're doing, rejoin the discussion, and stop being so morosely boring and painfully tedious.
Still not interested in your ad hominem and attacks.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Still not interested in your ad hominem and attacks.
And yet you're clearly interested enough to make a pointless statement.

When stating the truth becomes an ad hominem attack, your loss will be greater than you can fathom.

Where I come from, people who love truth welcome the correction.

Psa 141:5 WEB Let the righteous strike me, it is kindness; let him reprove me, it is like oil on the head; don’t let my head refuse it; Yet my prayer is always against evil deeds.

Pro 27:5-6 WEB 5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. 6 The wounds of a friend are faithful, although the kisses of an enemy are profuse.

Pro 29:1 WEB He who is often rebuked and stiffens his neck will be destroyed suddenly, with no remedy.

nobody ever enjoys the corrections. They sting like a spanking when we were children. But the benefits gained are eternal.
 

rossh

Well-known member
IOW the ten commandments etc are just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham or his ancestors.
lol, so who came first then, Moses and the 2 stone tablets, of the commandments and then the 360 Ordinances, ie; rules and laws, or Abraham.... ?
How about the 600 years apart that Abraham and Moses are ?
why on earth would a god ever knock on my door ? Can you please be polite and stop treating me like I am an idiot ? I am not here for your fun and amusement nor ridicule...
 

J regia

Well-known member
lol, so who came first then, Moses and the 2 stone tablets, of the commandments and then the 360 Ordinances, ie; rules and laws, or Abraham.... ?
How about the 600 years apart that Abraham and Moses are ?
IOW the ten commandments are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors. Nor to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born.
why on earth would a god ever knock on my door ? Can you please be polite and stop treating me like I am an idiot ? I am not here for your fun and amusement nor ridicule...
Why not if gods actually exist, given that Gen 18 describes how a god came to Abraham's door and how they shared a meal together and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah, and how the god then walked down to count them since it was neither an omniscient or omnipresent type of god.
And Gen 32:22-32 describes how Jacob had a wrestling match with a god and was squirrel gripped in his thigh hollow.

Or are those stories just imaginative fantasies?
 

rossh

Well-known member
IOW the ten commandments are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors. Nor to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born.

Why not if gods actually exist, given that Gen 18 describes how a god came to Abraham's door and how they shared a meal together and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah, and how the god then walked down to count them since it was neither an omniscient or omnipresent type of god.
And Gen 32:22-32 describes how Jacob had a wrestling match with a god and was squirrel gripped in his thigh hollow.

Or are those stories just imaginative fantasies?
well,, it is very obvious if you really want to stay unbiased in this chat.. If you are not willing to listen to reason then go away ?
It was MOSES who God had already chosen to do what Moses did. Abraham was chosen for other issues. If you want to just argue, then go right ahead but if you want to listen to reason then read all of the scriptures. Also if you just simply refuse to believe anything that anyone ever tells you then why come here in the first place ? Abraham and Moses were 500 years apart, so go back and look at your suppositions again ?
 

J regia

Well-known member
well,, it is very obvious if you really want to stay unbiased in this chat.. If you are not willing to listen to reason then go away ?
It was MOSES who God had already chosen to do what Moses did. Abraham was chosen for other issues. If you want to just argue, then go right ahead but if you want to listen to reason then read all of the scriptures. Also if you just simply refuse to believe anything that anyone ever tells you then why come here in the first place ? Abraham and Moses were 500 years apart, so go back and look at your suppositions again ?
But do you have any evidence that gods exist, or are the ten commandments etc just man-made?

And why would a real god give a set of laws to Moses, and not give them to Abraham's ancestors and to our aborigines over 50,000 years ago anyway? Or was that just an incompetent god?

Or are those stories just imaginative fantasies?

And FYI, this is a forum to discuss the validity of your beliefs, and not a pulpit.
And it ain't necessarily so, the things that you're liable to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so.
 

rossh

Well-known member
But do you have any evidence that gods exist, or are the ten commandments etc just man-made?

And why would a real god give a set of laws to Moses, and not give them to Abraham's ancestors and to our aborigines over 50,000 years ago anyway? Or was that just an incompetent god?

Or are those stories just imaginative fantasies?

And FYI, this is a forum to discuss the validity of your beliefs, and not a pulpit.
And it ain't necessarily so, the things that you're liable to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so.
I do not know why God did what He did nor why He does what He does...? Why do you not ask God yourself ?

Isa 46:10 At the beginning I announce the end, proclaim in advance things not yet done; and I say that my plan will hold, I will do everything I please to do.

It is time that YOU, started to deal with YOUR suppositions...
 

J regia

Well-known member
I do not know why God did what He did nor why He does what He does...? Why do you not ask God yourself ?

Isa 46:10 At the beginning I announce the end, proclaim in advance things not yet done; and I say that my plan will hold, I will do everything I please to do.
Alas I've never seen a god, and I see no evidence that the ten commandments weren't just man-made, given that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham and Noah to have sexual relationships with their sisters, or for Abraham to commit adultery with Hagar, or for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19).
Nor was it morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal.
Nor was it morally wrong for Caina-an to kill his brother Abel or for Noah's father to murder a young man (Gen 4)

It is time that YOU, started to deal with YOUR suppositions...
 

rossh

Well-known member
Alas I've never seen a god, and I see no evidence that the ten commandments weren't just man-made, given that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham and Noah to have sexual relationships with their sisters, or for Abraham to commit adultery with Hagar, or for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19).
Nor was it morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal.
Nor was it morally wrong for Caina-an to kill his brother Abel or for Noah's father to murder a young man (Gen 4)

It is time that YOU, started to deal with YOUR suppositions...
lol,,, God tested him and he passed.. He never killed his son at all... all that you talk on and on about was never allowed in the the actual Bible. However as there was no bible is Abraham's day.. your suppositions are just lies...
So again I ask, you need to deal with you guesswork..
When there was NO LAW, there was no sin, AND NOR WRONG DOING, why cant see that ?
 

J regia

Well-known member
lol,,, God tested him and he passed.. He never killed his son at all...
But it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal as commanded, even if the god subsequently preferred to eat an old ram instead of Abraham's son
all that you talk on and on about was never allowed in the the actual Bible.
So where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar?
And where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19)?
And where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Cain-an to kill his brother Abel, given that his god even protected him from retribution when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one or more Nod girls (Gen 4)? And likewise for Noah's father after he murdered a young man (Gen 4)?
However as there was no bible is Abraham's day.. your suppositions are just lies...
So again I ask, you need to deal with you guesswork..
When there was NO LAW, there was no sin, AND NOR WRONG DOING, why cant see that ?
IOW the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors.
 

rossh

Well-known member
But it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal as commanded, even if the god subsequently preferred to eat an old ram instead of Abraham's son

So where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar?
And where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19)?
And where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Cain-an to kill his brother Abel, given that his god even protected him from retribution when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one or more Nod girls (Gen 4)? And likewise for Noah's father after he murdered a young man (Gen 4)?

IOW the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors.
Now, look, I have already told you,, no one killed their son in the first place... The LAW and the Ordinances HAD NOT YET BEEN GIVEN TO MANKIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why can you not understand this simple yet basic FACT ?
Romans 3:
10 As the Tanakh puts it, "There is no one righteous, not even one! No one understands,

11 no one seeks God,

12 all have turned away and at the same time become useless; there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one!

13 "Their throats are open graves, they use their tongues to deceive. Vipers' venom is under their lips.

14 Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness.

15 "Their feet rush to shed blood,

16 in their ways are ruin and misery,

17 and the way of shalom they do not know.

18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment.

20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.

21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well -

22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,

23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God's praise.

24 By God's grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua.
Amen..
 

rossh

Well-known member
But it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal as commanded, even if the god subsequently preferred to eat an old ram instead of Abraham's son

So where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar?
And where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19)?
And where does the bible say that it was morally wrong for Cain-an to kill his brother Abel, given that his god even protected him from retribution when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one or more Nod girls (Gen 4)? And likewise for Noah's father after he murdered a young man (Gen 4)?

IOW the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors.
One last time, there was NO bible, in fact no OT until 550 years after this scenario of your vivid imagination...
 

J regia

Well-known member
One last time, there was NO bible, in fact no OT until 550 years after this scenario of your vivid imagination...
Which is why the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors.

Which why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham and Noah to have sexual relationships with their sisters, or for Abraham to commit adultery with Hagar, or for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19).
And why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal, even if the god preferred to eat an old ram instead.
And why it wasn't morally wrong for Caina-an to kill his brother Abel or for Noah's father to murder a young man (Gen 4).
 
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