Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"

J

J regia

Well-known member
rossh said:
Now, look, I have already told you,, no one killed their son in the first place... The LAW and the Ordinances HAD NOT YET BEEN GIVEN TO MANKIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why can you not understand this simple yet basic FACT ?
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And that's because the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made, since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors.

If you believe otherwise, then why would a real god change it's mind willy-nilly?
 
rossh

rossh

Well-known member
J regia said:
Which is why the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors.

Which why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham and Noah to have sexual relationships with their sisters, or for Abraham to commit adultery with Hagar, or for Lot to sexually assault his daughters (Gen 19).
And why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal, even if the god preferred to eat an old ram instead.
And why it wasn't morally wrong for Caina-an to kill his brother Abel or for Noah's father to murder a young man (Gen 4).
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Abraham has NOTHING at all TO DO with this premise of yours ????????? If I may ask, are you still learning to speak English... I wonder ? Abram was not even a Hebrew nor Jewish he came from, Ur of the Chaldeans...Also, circumcision was very common back then and in and around that same area.
 
J

J regia

Well-known member
rossh said:
Abraham has NOTHING at all TO DO with this premise of yours ????????? If I may ask, are you still learning to speak English... I wonder ? Abram was not even a Hebrew nor Jewish he came from, Ur of the Chaldeans...Also, circumcision was very common back then and in and around that same area.
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IOW the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl.
 
rossh

rossh

Well-known member
J regia said:
And that's because the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made, since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors.

If you believe otherwise, then why would a real god change it's mind willy-nilly?
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well it appears that you are the one telling those kind of " stories " so deal with your suppositions yourself ?
And again, Abraham was 550 year before the commandments were even given... how do you not understand this ?
 
J

J regia

Well-known member
rossh said:
well it appears that you are the one telling those kind of " stories " so deal with your suppositions yourself ?
And again, Abraham was 550 year before the commandments were even given... how do you not understand this ?
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Which is why the ten commandments were obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born, and not because a god changed it's mind willy-nilly.
 
Bob1

Bob1

Well-known member
SteveB said:
What is it that you want here Bob?
Do you want to win arguments?
Because if that's all you want, then it's immaterial what I say.

What
Do
You
Want
???
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What I want is for you to quit dodging and acknowledge the reality of people that went seeking your deity and found nothing.
 
Bob1

Bob1

Well-known member
SteveB said:
Well, you and your buddies here are the only ones who think their actions are political.

In the United states that I grew up in in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties and early aughts, everyone agreed those crimes happened explicitly because they were atheists.

So, 50 years of human history.




The key term here Bob....

THEIR religion.
Not BIBLICAL religion.
There's nothing in the new testament which approves, condones, sanctions, endorses, instructs, or commands followers of Jesus to use violence to fight against evil, or to convert people to become followers of Jesus.

But, by all means, I encourage you to examine the new testament to find it. Find the support you need to affirm your opinions.

I know that the catholic church used violence to oppose the Muslim jihad in the crusade era.
I further know that the catholic church used vile means to force conversions of people during the Inquisition.

I am not, nor have I ever been a catholic. I just never liked man-made religion.


Yep. In the old testament.
The laws given to the nation of Israel.
And the reason why is also explicitly stated...

That they not become a snare to you so that your children are drawn away from YHVH and serve false gods.

So, as I am not an Israeli, I won't be tracking you down and slaughtering you.
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Atheism was FALSELY blamed for the actions of despots. There is no evidence that those despots committed their acts in the name of atheism. You demonstrate that you don't think for yourself and examine things logically. Instead, your view is, "Well, a lot of people in the 60s and 70s TOLD me that despots did despotic things because of atheism... so I just believed 'em without a thought."

THEIR religion was/is BIBLICAL religion.
Your religion is man-made, Steve. All religions are.

Excuse making for violence and genocide. If that's truly your view, then just make sure you never quote any of the OT rules/laws to people. Otherwise that would be hypocritical.
 
SteveB

SteveB

Well-known member
Bob1 said:
What I want is for you to quit dodging and acknowledge the reality of people that went seeking your deity and found nothing.
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I acknowledge that you claim this is the case.

I further observe that you don't actually describe who "your deity" applied to me actually is.

I acknowledge further still that you don't actually describe what the process used to seek "your deity" applied to me has been for those other people whom you apply a blanket statement to.


So, as YHVH has explicitly stated that "in the day we seek" him "with a whole heart" he "will be found by" us, and he then states-- "I will give you a heart to know me" my questions start growing in complexity from your blanket statement.
 
SteveB

SteveB

Well-known member
Bob1 said:
Atheism was FALSELY blamed for the actions of despots. There is no evidence that those despots committed their acts in the name of atheism. You demonstrate that you don't think for yourself and examine things logically. Instead, your view is, "Well, a lot of people in the 60s and 70s TOLD me that despots did despotic things because of atheism... so I just believed 'em without a thought."
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Those communists who committed those atrocities explicitly because they were atheists.

So, you're going to have to take it up with them.


Bob1 said:
THEIR religion was/is BIBLICAL religion.
Your religion is man-made, Steve. All religions are.
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You are indeed entitled to your opinions, but as you're not actually giving me anything to make a comparison to, it's JUST YOUR OPINION.

Bob1 said:
Excuse making for violence and genocide. If that's truly your view, then just make sure you never quote any of the OT rules/laws to people. Otherwise that would be hypocritical.
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You're the one who keeps saying that atheism isn't to blame for the slaughter of over 200 million people in the 20th century and early 21st century.

So, it's pretty clear that you're the one who is justifying violence against humanity by your beliefs.
 
Algor

Algor

Well-known member
SteveB said:
Those communists who committed those atrocities explicitly because they were atheists.

So, you're going to have to take it up with them.



You are indeed entitled to your opinions, but as you're not actually giving me anything to make a comparison to, it's JUST YOUR OPINION.


You're the one who keeps saying that atheism isn't to blame for the slaughter of over 200 million people in the 20th century and early 21st century.

So, it's pretty clear that you're the one who is justifying violence against humanity by your beliefs.
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Meh. I think you could say that authoritarian leftism was responsible for that, and there are a couple of forms of atheism that are part of that.

But you couldn't say that atheism as per a libertarian rightist would be even permissive of that, nor the atheism of the more progressive George Orwell, nor that of Edward Teller (examples really pulled off the top of my head) , both of whom, in their own ways, worked pretty hard against leftist authoritarian butchery, and harder than you, and probably did more against it than any Christian that goes around on these boards declaiming against atheism. It's all a bit lame. I mean, if you had an out and out Bolshevik or Maoist, or an apologist for such things, they would be fair game. But you'd find me firmly opposed to their politics as well.
 
SteveB

SteveB

Well-known member
Algor said:
Meh. I think you could say that authoritarian leftism was responsible for that, and there are a couple of forms of atheism that are part of that.

But you couldn't say that atheism as per a libertarian rightist would be even permissive of that, nor the atheism of the more progressive George Orwell, nor that of Edward Teller (examples really pulled off the top of my head) , both of whom, in their own ways, worked pretty hard against leftist authoritarian butchery, and harder than you, and probably did more against it than any Christian that goes around on these boards declaiming against atheism. It's all a bit lame. I mean, if you had an out and out Bolshevik or Maoist, or an apologist for such things, they would be fair game. But you'd find me firmly opposed to their politics as well.
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I just posted a new thread, with numerous documents that discuss the issue.
 
rossh

rossh

Well-known member
Bob1 said:
For you to stop dodging and denying the fact that many people have earnestly and sincerely sought the deity you claim exists and found nothing.
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well ? that means nothing at all Bob1, billions of us HAVE found Him..
 
rossh

rossh

Well-known member
Whatsisface said:
What counts are the reasons people think they have found Him, not the numbers.

What reason do you have that makes you think you've found Him?
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MY reasons, well first of all, I do honesty believe all of His promises. .After all it is NOT God who is lost it is mostly us humans that need to be found.
Also, I do not have to have a " reason " it is my free will choice to look for God..
 
Whatsisface

Whatsisface

Well-known member
rossh said:
MY reasons, well first of all, I do honesty believe all of His promises.
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But why? What promises?
rossh said:
.After all it is NOT God who is lost it is mostly us humans that need to be found.
Also, I do not have to have a " reason " it is my free will choice to look for God..
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Ok, but, in the end, if you don't have good reason to think God is there, then why believe He is?
 
N

Nouveau

Well-known member
rossh said:
MY reasons, well first of all, I do honesty believe all of His promises. .After all it is NOT God who is lost it is mostly us humans that need to be found.
Also, I do not have to have a " reason " it is my free will choice to look for God..
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Believing without any good reason is pure self-delusion. If God were real, don't you think there'd be good evidence showing it?
 
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