Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"

SteveB

Well-known member
That's not evidence... just more of your dodging.
The evidence is in God's response to your engagement with him, yourself.
So, if you refuse to engage him on his terms, you're the one who keeps dodging.

Says the guy who hasn't offered anything other than opinions.
Then you have nothing to worry over.
When you die, you'll find that really hot and incredibly miserable experience is the final evidence that you refused to make the time to learn beforehand.

More dodging on your part. You don't want to admit your religion has played a role in atrocities... but you'll instantly and totally blame any viewpoint you disagree with as being the catalyst for such acts.


The only thing you're proving here is that you reject responsibility for your own choices.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Then according to the bible, they didn't do it the way Jesus said, no matter how much you want it to be right.
I think that the problem here is that you want to hide behind the failures and excuses of others, so you don't have to take responsibility for yourself.



Because I actually read the bible for the purpose of understanding, learning, instruction and perspective so I can know what God requires of me to follow Jesus, and gain the benefits of knowing God.

When I stand before God and answer for my own life, I don't want to have any excuses to hide behind.
I may indeed have my hat handed to me, but it won't be because I had excuses, or blamed my refusal on the failures of others.
And yet a great many of them DID follow the bible and do as they were instructed by believers like yourself. And they came up empty-handed. You simply won't acknowledge that fact.

Or so you claim. Every Christian believer claims "understanding".
 

Bob1

Well-known member
The evidence is in God's response to your engagement with him, yourself.
So, if you refuse to engage him on his terms, you're the one who keeps dodging.


Then you have nothing to worry over.
When you die, you'll find that really hot and incredibly miserable experience is the final evidence that you refused to make the time to learn beforehand.




The only thing you're proving here is that you reject responsibility for your own choices.
So the evidence indicates He doesn't exist or doesn't care then?
"On his terms"? Define exactly what that is. Be VERY SPECIFIC. You love to throw this vague statement around... and then deny that people did that when they report no results.

Fear mongering is it? One of the oldest religious tricks in the book.

I've proven that you are in denial.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Most atheists on CARM seem to believe that theists on CARM have a "burden of proof:" that is, there is some sense in which theists on CARM need to have and/or provide arguments for God's existence.

So, here is my question.

Do you think atheists on CARM have a "burden of refutation:" that is, some sort of obligation to refute one or more arguments for God's existence, under some circumstances? Why or why not?

The question is intentionally vague to allow for a range of interpretations of the "burden of refutation."

Thanks for your thoughts! :)

If someone can't refute an argument, then they have no reason to disbelieve it.

Reality based arguments are the only arguments that can be known to be true in and about reality.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
And yet a great many of them DID follow the bible and do as they were instructed by believers like yourself. And they came up empty-handed. You simply won't acknowledge that fact.

Or so you claim. Every Christian believer claims "understanding".
If they actually followed Jesus they would not have left.

The fact that you claim they left shows they lost sight of who Jesus is.

Heb 2:1 WEB Therefore we ought to pay greater attention to the things that were heard, lest perhaps we drift away.

And

Heb 12:1-2 WEB 1 Therefore let’s also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It's quite easy to lose perspective of who Jesus is and what he has accomplished on our behalf.

Jesus describes this in Matthew 13, and the parable of the sower.

Mat 13:20-22 WEB 20 What was sown on the rocky places, this is he who hears the word and immediately with joy receives it; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 What was sown among the thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So the evidence indicates He doesn't exist or doesn't care then?
"On his terms"? Define exactly what that is. Be VERY SPECIFIC.
They're all contained in the bible.
Specifically in the new testament. Jesus simplified it in the gospel of John.




You love to throw this vague statement around... and then deny that people did that when they report no results.
You apparently believe that your refusing to follow instructions is my fault.



Fear mongering is it? One of the oldest religious tricks in the book.
Yep.
So is believing that a warning about the bridge being out ahead.

I've proven that you are in denial.
No.
You've proven that you don't actually want to know, and you're really adept at blaming the failures of others on YHVH is proof that YHVH isn't real and knowable.

So... yeah. When you stop hiding behind excuses and take responsibility for doing what Jesus said, then you'll meet YHVH.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
If they actually followed Jesus they would not have left.

The fact that you claim they left shows they lost sight of who Jesus is.

Heb 2:1 WEB Therefore we ought to pay greater attention to the things that were heard, lest perhaps we drift away.

And

Heb 12:1-2 WEB 1 Therefore let’s also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It's quite easy to lose perspective of who Jesus is and what he has accomplished on our behalf.

Jesus describes this in Matthew 13, and the parable of the sower.

Mat 13:20-22 WEB 20 What was sown on the rocky places, this is he who hears the word and immediately with joy receives it; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 What was sown among the thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
The fact that they left shows your deity never manifested. If your religion were as true and correct as you present it they would have never left.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
They're all contained in the bible.
Specifically in the new testament. Jesus simplified it in the gospel of John.





You apparently believe that your refusing to follow instructions is my fault.




Yep.
So is believing that a warning about the bridge being out ahead.


No.
You've proven that you don't actually want to know, and you're really adept at blaming the failures of others on YHVH is proof that YHVH isn't real and knowable.

So... yeah. When you stop hiding behind excuses and take responsibility for doing what Jesus said, then you'll meet YHVH.
How about you spell those instructions out in exact detail for everyone.

The "instructions" don't work... that's not my fault.

Not when we get to the bridge and can clearly see it isn't "out".

No, people have just demonstrated that your formula doesn't work. You refuse to acknowledge that though.

It's not excuses when people have followed the instructions and those instructions didn't work.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
well ummm ? ALL of them of course !!!!
You've been called out on this behaviour before. If you're going to accuse someone of not supporting their claims, you need to be able to show a specific claim they have not supported. Otherwise you're not really being honest or reasonable.
 

FCP

Member
The evidence is in God's response to your engagement with him, yourself.
So, if you refuse to engage him on his terms, you're the one who keeps dodging.
Hi Steve, this too simple.

You basically throw back the burden by saying "you have no evidence because you did not engage with *him* .."

That is at best faith, but proves nothing.

FCP
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Hi Steve, this too simple.

You basically throw back the burden by saying "you have no evidence because you did not engage with *him* .."

That is at best faith, but proves nothing.

FCP
Good morning FCP.
It is really simple.
According to the bible, YHVH inhabits eternity. He holds the entirety of the cosmos in the span of his hand.
So, it's incumbent on him to show himself real to us.
He's stated that in the day that we seek him with a whole heart, in THAT day we will find him.
A lot of people have claimed they "sought him really hard" and never found him.
Jesus said he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.
YHVH said that he'd give us a heart to know him.
So, you can either argue about it, or you can come to Jesus.
YHVH further tells us--- God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

In the experiences of many Jesus followers, it's not about the emotional reaction we have. It's about the results.
I believe God because he made himself real to me, and has shown himself exactly as the bible says. You don't have to do anything, and upon your death you'll learn the hard way just how wrong you are.
Or, you can stop arguing, and come to Jesus.

It's not an argument. It's a relational dynamic.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Quite frankly, it's entirely your choice.
What I've found over the years is what what you can spend decades, indeed an entire life debating and arguing about, YHVH can resolve in mere seconds, if you come to him, and do what he's asked--- on HIS TERMS.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Good morning FCP.
It is really simple.
According to the bible, YHVH inhabits eternity. He holds the entirety of the cosmos in the span of his hand.
So, it's incumbent on him to show himself real to us.
He's stated that in the day that we seek him with a whole heart, in THAT day we will find him.
Hardly surprising, what an excellent example of confirmation bias.
 

FCP

Member
(...)
You don't have to do anything, and upon your death you'll learn the hard way just how wrong you are.
(...)

That assumption is purely up to you. Again, your simplicity is based on faith. From what I hear from you is that it lacks faith to come to *evidence".

That is fine with me as long as we agree that this is not hard coded evidence but assumed evidence.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
That assumption is purely up to you. Again, your simplicity is based on faith. From what I hear from you is that it lacks faith to come to *evidence".

That is fine with me as long as we agree that this is not hard coded evidence but assumed evidence.
No assumptions about it.

Jesus plainly stated,
Unless you repent you too will perish.

So, the assumption that you have to decide whether or not you're ready to commit to is--
Are you right, or are you wrong?
Is Jesus who he claims to be, and did he rise from the dead?
If he's not, and he didn't rise from the dead, then none of these things which we're talking about on this forum matters, in the least.
We eat, drink, have lots of fun and then we die.

But if Jesus is in fact who he claims to be and he actually did rise from the dead, then everything he said is of supreme importance, and you'd better deal with it before you die.
And since none of us have the slightest clue when our death is coming, it's wise to deal with it as soon as possible.

The assumption isn't mine.
It's yours.

Eternity is a long time to find out just how much you screwed yourself.
 

rossh

Well-known member
No assumptions about it.

Jesus plainly stated,
Unless you repent you too will perish.

So, the assumption that you have to decide whether or not you're ready to commit to is--
Are you right, or are you wrong?
Is Jesus who he claims to be, and did he rise from the dead?
If he's not, and he didn't rise from the dead, then none of these things which we're talking about on this forum matters, in the least.
We eat, drink, have lots of fun and then we die.

But if Jesus is in fact who he claims to be and he actually did rise from the dead, then everything he said is of supreme importance, and you'd better deal with it before you die.
And since none of us have the slightest clue when our death is coming, it's wise to deal with it as soon as possible.

The assumption isn't mine.
It's yours.

Eternity is a long time to find out just how much you screwed yourself.
At this point yes, you are right. There are of course more than one " unless,,,, " statement from the Messiah. Most come here to ridicule us true believers, certainly not/never to be saved.. Most do not even know about " being saved ".. sic!

Yes indeed, eternity is very grave time indeed to be wrong..
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
lol, do you not understand the meaning of " all ", it means in your case " each and every one of your comments/statement/unproven claims.. " God Bless you..
You haven't identified any unsupported claim from ES. Again, if you're going to make accusations then you need actual examples.
 
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