Question for Everyone: The Atheist's "Burden of Refutation"

SteveB

Well-known member
well that point comes down to us all just being human beings... Allah and God are the same one true God it is us humans that have to argue and debate endlessly over the least important issues. Do not kill! Do not commit adultery. So who makes all the excuses under the Sun so as to do just those 2 items ? We all do!!
So you actually believe that Allah and YHVH are the same God?

YHVH has a Son. His name is Jesus.
Allah has no son.
Therefore, by that alone, for them to be the same God, either Allah is confused, and forgot his own son, or is lying.

Jesus said--- he that hates in his heart has committed murder. John tells us--- he that hates in his heart, has committed murder, and we know that no murderer has eternal life dwelling in them.

Show me that Muslims do not murder.
 

rossh

Well-known member
So you actually believe that Allah and YHVH are the same God?

YHVH has a Son. His name is Jesus.
Allah has no son.
Therefore, by that alone, for them to be the same God, either Allah is confused, and forgot his own son, or is lying.

Jesus said--- he that hates in his heart has committed murder. John tells us--- he that hates in his heart, has committed murder, and we know that no murderer has eternal life dwelling in them.

Show me that Muslims do not murder.
LOL, TO THE MUSLIMS ALLAH IS GOD TO THE MUSLIMS ALLAH tIAS GOD ALLAH IAS GOD TO THE MUSLIMS THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD....
Allah ” denotes “God” as far as definition goes — these words mean the same thing superficially. There is also a connotation to the word depending on context and speaker. A Christian living in the West would confuse listeners by referring to Yahweh as “Allah” because westerners associate Allah with Islam.. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection. More recently Pope Francis implied as much when he signed the Declaration on Human Fraternity in early 2019, together with the grand imam of Al-Azhar, in Abu Dhabi. Therein the two religious leaders mutually declare: “We, who believe in God and in the final meeting..

tHE WAY THAT EACH/ALL OFTHE FOLLOWERS ACT AND BEHAVE IS YET ANOTHER ISSUE ALTOGETHER!!!

lol..
 

rossh

Well-known member
So you actually believe that Allah and YHVH are the same God?

YHVH has a Son. His name is Jesus.
Allah has no son.
Therefore, by that alone, for them to be the same God, either Allah is confused, and forgot his own son, or is lying.

Jesus said--- he that hates in his heart has committed murder. John tells us--- he that hates in his heart, has committed murder, and we know that no murderer has eternal life dwelling in them.

Show me that Muslims do not murder.
lol,, you show me your problems by this, I never said anything at all what so ever about Allah and God, YOU did, you asked that REDICULOUS QUESTION/SUPPOSITION ? I am taught by a Pastor not by a Muslims Cleric, the Muslims are taught by their own teachers... Why is this so hard for you guys to comprehend things ? Ask any Muslim who Allah is, not me ?

Now that YOU mentioned it, how is eternal life dwelling inside of us, we true believers ? Who taught you that ? I read Gods Word where we are taught that, The Holy Spirit dwells in us and is the holy of God also God to you ?
Where is that quote above, " he who hates in his heart has committed murder ?
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Hi again Bob,
I'm no match intellectually with many here too include atheists however this came to mind, if three people had three different contrasting ideas about what a color represented in a traffic signal, it doesn't necessitate by default that all are wrong, in fact more than one could be truthful depending on the situation.
I realize you can go the extra mile here to find out which or more contexts may be true, but faith as I understand it is a different sort of animal and so the analogy admittedly has limitations, but nevertheless I thought it expressed a truth.
Thanks again for taking time to read my replies.
Good day.

Nic
Interesting reply. But as you pointed out, we can objectively ascertain the meaning of a particular color of traffic light in a particular location/circumstance. Not so with belief in deities... especially multiple, contradicting beliefs.
I'm afraid I don't put much stock in "faith". I don't consider it virtuous to believe something for which there is little to no objective evidence.
 
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Eightcrackers

Well-known member
So you actually believe that Allah and YHVH are the same God?

YHVH has a Son. His name is Jesus.
Allah has no son.
Therefore, by that alone, for them to be the same God, either Allah is confused, and forgot his own son, or is lying.

Jesus said--- he that hates in his heart has committed murder. John tells us--- he that hates in his heart, has committed murder, and we know that no murderer has eternal life dwelling in them.

Show me that Muslims do not murder.
What percentage of Muslims do you think have committed murder?
Seriously.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Interesting reply. But as you pointed out, we can objectively ascertain the meaning of a particular color of traffic light in a particular location/circumstance. Not so with belief in deities... especially multiple, contradicting beliefs.
I'm afraid I don't put much stock in "faith". I don't consider it virtuous to believe something for which there is little to no objective evidence.
Faith is trust or a trusting confidence, I'm not sure how to measure that? 🤷I've already acknowledged your position apart from faith is within reason. I don't dispute that. But thanks again for reading my replies and your response.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Hi Bob, here's the fuller response, the prior was my draft I inadvertently saved before completion.
Interesting reply. But as you pointed out, we can objectively ascertain the meaning of a particular color of traffic light in a particular location/circumstance. Not so with belief in deities... especially multiple, contradicting beliefs.
I'm afraid I don't put much stock in "faith". I don't consider it virtuous to believe something for which there is little to no objective evidence.
Faith is trust or a trusting confidence, I'm not sure how to measure that? 🤷
I suppose we can measure decisions made by people of faith to get an idea how consistent a person's faith might be, but faith is also a personal matter requiring personal interpretation in acting in accordance to how one understands their faith. Each and every context is unique and open to interpretation. So even if the immediately preceding wasn't part of the equation, I feel like measuring given responses of such persons of faith, is measuring results prejudice for or against faith and not necessarily proving there is this thing called faith that is not imagined. But for a person of faith like myself, I extend the benefit of the doubt to these, because I too also possess faith. And I understand faith can be shakened or disturbed. (imv) I see this as potentially harming this gift or quality especially when immature. Faith often affords comfort most appreciated deeply within our being or personhood. Is it a true or false source of comfort? That depends on who you're asking. I think it's safe to presume that persons of faith believe in their... faith as true. Among these most persons of faith believe their flavor as the most truthful expression. Circular? Sure. Prejudice? No doubt. I don't deny either of these. But I know I have faith instilled me and I possess this abstract construct called faith. It came from outside of me, well in my case anyway and I would argue that truly represents Christian faith. I suppose and I really have no problem with saying non-Christian faiths can arrive from outside themselves as well although the source would be different authors.
I've already acknowledged your position apart from faith is within reason. It's honest and forthright from your position agreeing with conscience. I respect that. I don't dispute that and I think it's wrong for anyone to be at odds with their conscience. But thanks again for reading my replies and your responses here.
👍
 
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Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
so which post is that ? I am suspicious of your motives for even being here ? Anyway,, to sum it all up the post that I am speaking of the very first post that I ever posted and replied to you with.. I read many post but after that I replied to one, as in MY first ever reply to you.
God Bless and Keep you...
Yet again, cite the post or stop ranting.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
several times, where you claim God is not God and such... as I said my first ever POST To you, which you now seemed to have forgotten...
Of course I've forgotten. Why would I remember your first post to me? Yet again, if you want to discuss a post of mine, cite it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
LOL, TO THE MUSLIMS ALLAH IS GOD TO THE MUSLIMS ALLAH tIAS GOD ALLAH IAS GOD TO THE MUSLIMS THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD....
And to the baal, ashteroth, oden, and all the other manifold millions of worshippers, their gods are real gods too.
According to Isaiah 43

Isa 43:10-11 WEB 10 “You are my witnesses,” says Yahweh, “With my servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after me. 11 I myself am Yahweh. Besides me, there is no savior.

Isaiah 45

Isa 45:18 WEB For Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn’t create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited says: “I am Yahweh. There is no other.

And Deuteronomy 32

Deu 32:17 WEB They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods that they didn’t know, to new gods that came up recently, which your fathers didn’t dread.

There is only one God who is the true and living God. All the others, including Allah, are demons.



Allah ” denotes “God” as far as definition goes — these words mean the same thing superficially.
Allah is the Arabic word for god.
That's the only connection.


There is also a connotation to the word depending on context and speaker.
Indeed. To the Hindus, they have tens of millions of gods.
Are you going to say that their gods are real, even though YHVH says that they are demons?


A Christian living in the West would confuse listeners by referring to Yahweh as “Allah” because westerners associate Allah with Islam..
And?



We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.
Islam does not believe in YHVH.
YHVH has a Son.
Allah does not have a son.
YHVH loves Israel and the followers of Jesus.
Allah hates Israel and the followers of Jesus.
Allah commands muslims to kill infidels.
Jesus said that the day was coming when people would believe that they were doing God a favor by killing his followers, because they don't know God, nor Jesus.
So, let's do it this way.
You sit down with a bible, and the Quran, side by side and read them both.
Show how YHVH is the same God as Allah.
From what I read, Allah is not YHVH and never has been.

Allah is antithetical to YHVH.

Jesus did say
Joh 10:10 WEB The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.

In light of these passages, and many more, Allah is the thief.

More recently Pope Francis implied as much when he signed the Declaration on Human Fraternity in early 2019, together with the grand imam of Al-Azhar, in Abu Dhabi. Therein the two religious leaders mutually declare: “We, who believe in God and in the final meeting..

tHE WAY THAT EACH/ALL OFTHE FOLLOWERS ACT AND BEHAVE IS YET ANOTHER ISSUE ALTOGETHER!!!

lol..
I guess it's a good thing that I don't believe the Pope, and instead believe the bible.

If you do actually believe the Pope, repent and believe the gospel of Jesus as defined in the bible!
 

SteveB

Well-known member
lol,, you show me your problems by this, I never said anything at all what so ever about Allah and God, YOU did, you asked that REDICULOUS QUESTION/SUPPOSITION ? I am taught by a Pastor not by a Muslims Cleric, the Muslims are taught by their own teachers... Why is this so hard for you guys to comprehend things ? Ask any Muslim who Allah is, not me ?

Now that YOU mentioned it, how is eternal life dwelling inside of us, we true believers ? Who taught you that ? I read Gods Word where we are taught that, The Holy Spirit dwells in us and is the holy of God also God to you ?
Where is that quote above, " he who hates in his heart has committed murder ?
Ok. Now you're making no sense whatsoever.
Have a great day.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What percentage of Muslims do you think have committed murder?
Seriously.
I have no idea.
But from what I've read in the news, and the claims of the muslims who have been practicing murderers, I've identified 2 key issues.

1- only true muslims practice jihad. Meaning that failure to engage in jihad excludes you from being a true Muslim.

2- they don't believe that it's murder to kill infidels. It's serving Allah's purpose.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
By asking "show me a Muslim that does not murder", you are implying that you think they all do.
And you know it.
And according to Muslims who murder, they are the only true muslims.
I'm just taking them at their word. ive me a reason to believe otherwise.

As the Quran, Surah 2:216 clearly states---

Fighting is ordained upon you and it is disliked by you; it may well be that you dislike a thing even though it is good for you, and it may well be that you like a thing even though it is bad for you. Allah knows and you do not know.

I'd say that it's not me who is having a problem here.
You really should pay closer attention.


According to whom?
The Quran. Surah 2:216
Fighting is ordained upon you and it is disliked by you; it may well be that you dislike a thing even though it is good for you, and it may well be that you like a thing even though it is bad for you. Allah knows and you do not know.


The jihadists?
I get the impression they've become jihadists because they believed the Quran.
The jihadists' interpretation of the Koran?
You tell me...
What do you read when you see...

Fighting is ordained upon you and it is disliked by you; it may well be that you dislike a thing even though it is good for you, and it may well be that you like a thing even though it is bad for you. Allah knows and you do not know.

Looks pretty clear--- it's imperative that Muslims are to fight. Regardless of whether they like it or not.
So..... some would say that ISIS are true muslims.

It seems to me that people have spent so much time falling all over themselves trying to defend islam as a peacefull religion, they never bothered reading their texts.

Surah 9:5. When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush

So.... you tell me.... how would you interpret those verses?
I'm taking them at face value, in the manner which the words used are ordered in the manner they are.
 

rossh

Well-known member
And to the baal, ashteroth, oden, and all the other manifold millions of worshippers, their gods are real gods too.
According to Isaiah 43

Isa 43:10-11 WEB 10 “You are my witnesses,” says Yahweh, “With my servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after me. 11 I myself am Yahweh. Besides me, there is no savior.

Isaiah 45

Isa 45:18 WEB For Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn’t create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited says: “I am Yahweh. There is no other.

And Deuteronomy 32

Deu 32:17 WEB They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods that they didn’t know, to new gods that came up recently, which your fathers didn’t dread.

There is only one God who is the true and living God. All the others, including Allah, are demons.




Allah is the Arabic word for god.
That's the only connection.



Indeed. To the Hindus, they have tens of millions of gods.
Are you going to say that their gods are real, even though YHVH says that they are demons?



And?




Islam does not believe in YHVH.
YHVH has a Son.
Allah does not have a son.
YHVH loves Israel and the followers of Jesus.
Allah hates Israel and the followers of Jesus.
Allah commands muslims to kill infidels.
Jesus said that the day was coming when people would believe that they were doing God a favor by killing his followers, because they don't know God, nor Jesus.
So, let's do it this way.
You sit down with a bible, and the Quran, side by side and read them both.
Show how YHVH is the same God as Allah.
From what I read, Allah is not YHVH and never has been.

Allah is antithetical to YHVH.

Jesus did say
Joh 10:10 WEB The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.

In light of these passages, and many more, Allah is the thief.


I guess it's a good thing that I don't believe the Pope, and instead believe the bible.

If you do actually believe the Pope, repent and believe the gospel of Jesus as defined in the bible!
lol I am an X RC and if you had be careful to read my post you world have known this..
My issues is this GODS WORD ALONE SAVES!! HIS WORD BECAME FLESH..
Be baptised as an adulty as HE was, but then we have to speak out for those present to hear at our adult baptism, " I confess Yeshua as MY Lord and as MY Savior " Only then we will be saved. This is Gods Word/Scripture..
Seems to me that too many here at CARM, actually want to dissect each and every " sentence " in the Bible so that they can then deny them ?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yea, I asked you to prove your belief's and you can not be bothered, so who is it that makes no sense, really ?
I've been "proving" my beliefs daily for the past 44+ years now. Just as Jesus described in Matthew 7, and James said in James 1, regarding being a doer of the word and not jus a hearer only.

Is there a point to your issues?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
lol I am an X RC and if you had be careful to read my post you world have known this..
My issues is this GODS WORD ALONE SAVES!! HIS WORD BECAME FLESH..
Be baptised as an adulty as HE was, but then we have to speak out for those present to hear at our adult baptism, " I confess Yeshua as MY Lord and as MY Savior " Only then we will be saved. This is Gods Word/Scripture..
Seems to me that too many here at CARM, actually want to dissect each and every " sentence " in the Bible so that they can then deny them ?
Never been a catholic before.
I left the family church 50 years ago.
Met Jesus 6 years later and have been learning to follow him ever since.
 
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