Question For John Atheist: Don't You Want To Remember Your Good Deeds Forever?

JAG

Active member
JAG Writes:
~ Regarding John Atheist ~
~ Introductory Remarks ~

John Atheist,
You do desire to live a heroic life and to be remembered
for your good deeds, don't you? I think you do.
You have lived your life to help others, haven't you? Yes,
you most likely have.
You have lived by the Golden Rule that says do unto
others as you would have them do unto you, haven't
you? Yes, you probably have lived that way.
But on your atheism let us assume that you die and
cease to exist forever --- here is a short piece I wrote
about this atheistic cease-to-exist sadness.


A Monument To John Atheist
by JAG
Let us say that your risked your life to save 3000 people that
were stranded in a dangerous storm and in so doing you lost
a leg, but you were successful in rescuing them and the "powers
that be" gave you a medal for your heroic action and later a
grateful nation erected a statue of John Atheist and it stood
for 500 years.

That would matter to YOU in the short term, but not in the
long term. On your atheism there would come a time when
John Atheist ceased to exist -- and became this 00000

If John Atheist does Cease-To-Exist, then in the long
term it would not matter to YOU that you had acted
heroically to save the lives of other human beings.

If some humans remembered you for 5000 years it would
NOT matter to YOU because you Ceased-To-Exist and
had become this 00000.

So what point am I making? Answer: You need spiritual
tools to arrive at what really matters.
John 3:16
{1) believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and "perish"

Let us say that John Atheist made a decision to believe in the
Lord Jesus as his Savior and that John Atheist now has Eternal
Life , , , ,

Here now on this spiritual ground your heroic action would
matter for all Eternity. It would be FOREVER in your mind
that you had performed a noble heroic action that helped
other people at great cost to you. It would be known by untold
billions of human beings who were sharing Eternal Life with you.
It would matter to YOU and to THEM . . . FOREVER.

Now why on Earth, would that NOT appeal to you?
Why would you NOT desire to be known forever
and remembered forever by large numbers of
people that YOU had personally helped by living a
noble heroic life?

Why does it not make you very sad to think that, on your atheism,
all your past noble heroic acts will be reduced to 00000 and will
never be remembered by you?

America and humanity at large honors and remembers their hero's
so don't bother telling me that to honor and remember hero's is selfish
or narcissistic -- that's just an absurd and silly objection to the OP.

JAG
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
JAG Writes:
~ Regarding John Atheist ~
~ Introductory Remarks ~

John Atheist,
You do desire to live a heroic life and to be remembered
for your good deeds, don't you? I think you do.
You have lived your life to help others, haven't you? Yes,
you most likely have.
You have lived by the Golden Rule that says do unto
others as you would have them do unto you, haven't
you? Yes, you probably have lived that way.
But on your atheism let us assume that you die and
cease to exist forever --- here is a short piece I wrote
about this atheistic cease-to-exist sadness.


A Monument To John Atheist
by JAG
Let us say that your risked your life to save 3000 people that
were stranded in a dangerous storm and in so doing you lost
a leg, but you were successful in rescuing them and the "powers
that be" gave you a medal for your heroic action and later a
grateful nation erected a statue of John Atheist and it stood
for 500 years.

That would matter to YOU in the short term, but not in the
long term. On your atheism there would come a time when
John Atheist ceased to exist -- and became this 00000

If John Atheist does Cease-To-Exist, then in the long
term it would not matter to YOU that you had acted
heroically to save the lives of other human beings.

If some humans remembered you for 5000 years it would
NOT matter to YOU because you Ceased-To-Exist and
had become this 00000.

So what point am I making? Answer: You need spiritual
tools to arrive at what really matters.
John 3:16
{1) believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and "perish"

Let us say that John Atheist made a decision to believe in the
Lord Jesus as his Savior and that John Atheist now has Eternal
Life , , , ,

Here now on this spiritual ground your heroic action would
matter for all Eternity. It would be FOREVER in your mind
that you had performed a noble heroic action that helped
other people at great cost to you. It would be known by untold
billions of human beings who were sharing Eternal Life with you.
It would matter to YOU and to THEM . . . FOREVER.

Now why on Earth, would that NOT appeal to you?
Why would you NOT desire to be known forever
and remembered forever by large numbers of
people that YOU had personally helped by living a
noble heroic life?

Why does it not make you very sad to think that, on your atheism,
all your past noble heroic acts will be reduced to 00000 and will
never be remembered by you?

America and humanity at large honors and remembers their hero's
so don't bother telling me that to honor and remember hero's is selfish
or narcissistic -- that's just an absurd and silly objection to the OP.

JAG
God is not about good doing, God is about good being.
 

John S

New Member
JAG, your post seems to suggest that what is real is determined by what we choose to believe is real. This wreaks of relativism. What is real is real, and what we prefer or how we understand it will not change it.

Seems to me that the Bible offers quite a mixed bag as to what happens to us after death. The Sheol of the Old Testament is quite different from the Heaven and Hell of the New. Then there is this:

All this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hate one does not know. Everything that confronts them is vanity, since the same fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to those who sacrifice and those who do not sacrifice. As are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath. This is an evil in all that happens under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone. Moreover, the hearts of all are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. But whoever is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun.
Eccl 9:1-6 (NRSV)

If we read the Bible honestly we see that the idea of salvation as life after death comes to prominence only after Jesus. What was regarded to constitute salvation was different in different parts of the Bible. For Abraham, it was salvation from dying childless and without a legacy. For Moses, it was salvation from cruel slavery by deliverance into a homeland flowing with milk and honey. In the period of the Judges it was salvation from invading kings and adversarial tribes. In the period of the Israelite monarchies it was salvation from corrupt monarchs and foreign empires. During the Babylonian exile it was being allowed to return back to Judea. In the wisdom literature it was salvation from ignorance and error. In many of the Psalms it was deliverance from scheming and treacherous adversaries both foreign and domestic. In the Greek and Roman periods it was the hope that God’s Messiah would arise to throw off foreign domination and establish just and harmonious rule under God’s law. All of these were salvations here on earth; the idea of what might happen to one’s soul after death did not enter into any of them. Even Jesus preached the Kingdom of God as something that would come soon on Earth. It was only after it did not come soon that early Christians (Gospel of John, etc.) started shifting it to pie in the sky.

The truth is that we don't know what comes after death. The point of honest Christianity is not to secure a ticket to Heaven but to be opened into a relationship with God here and now that obviates any fear of whatever mysteries death holds for us.

Furthermore, while you are correct that to remember the heroism of others is not selfish and narcissistic, doing heroic acts in order to be remembered is selfish and narcissistic and rarely the reason people behave heroically.

"Believing" in Jesus just in case the fundamentalist version of Christianity is true is cowardly and disingenuous.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Jag,

Your OP seems to be based on the idea that beliefs can be consciously chosen which of course is not possible.
DO you choose to believe man went to the moon or have you choses to believe like some that is was just as fabrication and they really didnt? You cant prove they did one way or the other, all you have is another persons say so. We all make choices what we believe dont we?
 

rstrats

Member
Gary Mac,
re: "DO you choose to believe man went to the moon..."

No, not if you mean to consciously choose/engender a belief in man's landing on the moon. I say that because I have never been able to consciously engender any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability ever complied with my request.


re: "We all make choices what we believe don't we?"

Based on my experience, I don't think so - at least not consciously. I would guess that whenever a new belief is realized that it has very likely come about by some process occurring in the subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, experience, etc.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Gary Mac,
re: "DO you choose to believe man went to the moon..."

No, not if you mean to consciously choose/engender a belief in man's landing on the moon. I say that because I have never been able to consciously engender any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability ever complied with my rquest
re: "We all make choices what we believe don't we?"

Based on my experience, I don't think so - at least not consciously. I would guess that whenever a new belief is realized that it has very likely come about by some process occurring in the subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, experience, etc.
I am the same. Reality is the manifestation of and not conjured through speculation. Fact is not belief, fact is proof of.

In Christendom beliefs run amuck with no facts to substantiate reality. But there is a reality of when God Himself is manifest in you. In that-- beliefs are out the window.

These are so funny. One church says this is what to believe, the one across the street says OH NO that is of the devil this is what to believe , the one on the next corner says you both are wrong and guilty of blaspheme, this is what to believe.

SO as with yourself beliefs are a figment of ones imagination.

The religious mind comes to me with the demand that I believe this and do that.
The Spiritual minded comes to me with the demand that I line up my life with the standards of Jesus.

What is that standard? Simply Love and live it. No beliefs involved.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
JAG Writes:
~ Regarding John Atheist ~
~ Introductory Remarks ~

John Atheist,
You do desire to live a heroic life and to be remembered
for your good deeds, don't you? I think you do.
You have lived your life to help others, haven't you? Yes,
you most likely have.
You have lived by the Golden Rule that says do unto
others as you would have them do unto you, haven't
you? Yes, you probably have lived that way.
But on your atheism let us assume that you die and
cease to exist forever --- here is a short piece I wrote
about this atheistic cease-to-exist sadness.


A Monument To John Atheist
by JAG
Let us say that your risked your life to save 3000 people that
were stranded in a dangerous storm and in so doing you lost
a leg, but you were successful in rescuing them and the "powers
that be" gave you a medal for your heroic action and later a
grateful nation erected a statue of John Atheist and it stood
for 500 years.

That would matter to YOU in the short term, but not in the
long term. On your atheism there would come a time when
John Atheist ceased to exist -- and became this 00000

If John Atheist does Cease-To-Exist, then in the long
term it would not matter to YOU that you had acted
heroically to save the lives of other human beings.

If some humans remembered you for 5000 years it would
NOT matter to YOU because you Ceased-To-Exist and
had become this 00000.

So what point am I making? Answer: You need spiritual
tools to arrive at what really matters.
John 3:16
{1) believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and "perish"

Let us say that John Atheist made a decision to believe in the
Lord Jesus as his Savior and that John Atheist now has Eternal
Life , , , ,

Here now on this spiritual ground your heroic action would
matter for all Eternity. It would be FOREVER in your mind
that you had performed a noble heroic action that helped
other people at great cost to you. It would be known by untold
billions of human beings who were sharing Eternal Life with you.
It would matter to YOU and to THEM . . . FOREVER.

Now why on Earth, would that NOT appeal to you?
Why would you NOT desire to be known forever
and remembered forever by large numbers of
people that YOU had personally helped by living a
noble heroic life?

Why does it not make you very sad to think that, on your atheism,
all your past noble heroic acts will be reduced to 00000 and will
never be remembered by you?

America and humanity at large honors and remembers their hero's
so don't bother telling me that to honor and remember hero's is selfish
or narcissistic -- that's just an absurd and silly objection to the OP.

JAG
Being remembered for one's heroism is essentially no different than being praised for one's righteous works. According to Christ, this is "an abomination" Luke 31:16

If I do something that others will remember forever, what is that to me? I couldn't care less if it a good thing. If it is evil, THEN it matters to me not just now, but forever. Sure we would all like people to remember our good deeds, but this isn't why one does good. We do good because to do evil is incomprehensibly repulsive.

Paul points out that all are unrighteous. None of us can claim any righteousness. it is only Christ who can claim that, and ultimately, only he will be remembered because only he truly lives eternally. He is eternal life. All other identities are nothing more than dust in the wind.

100 years from now, no one will remember much of anything about you. There may be some pictures stashed away in someone's attic, or maybe some pictures online that most people couldn't care less about.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Being remembered for one's heroism is essentially no different than being praised for one's righteous works. According to Christ, this is "an abomination" Luke 31:16
It isnt about being praised for ones heroism, it is about being as as He is.
If I do something that others will remember forever, what is that to me? I couldn't care less if it a good thing. If it is evil, THEN it matters to me not just now, but forever. Sure we would all like people to remember our good deeds, but this isn't why one does good. We do good because to do evil is incomprehensibly repulsive.

It isnt a matter of doing good but good being.
Paul points out that all are unrighteous.
Jesus points out that all who are in the Father are righteous.
None of us can claim any righteousness.
True either you are the righteousness of God in Christ or you are not.
it is only Christ who can claim that, and ultimately, only he will be remembered because only he truly lives eternally. He is eternal life. All other identities are nothing more than dust in the wind.
And Christ in you , anointed of God, is the same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus. Few who find His way to be like Him as Jesus was like Him.
100 years from now, no one will remember much of anything about you. There may be some pictures stashed away in someone's attic, or maybe some pictures online that most people couldn't care less about.
 
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